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Old July 15 2013, 11:18 PM   #1816
Brendan Moody
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Dany is certainly going to get to Westeros eventually. Martin has said so on more than one occasion, even confirming that there'll be a second Dance of the Dragons (Targaryen civil war), presumably between her and "Aegon." I don't think she was ever going to get there very early in the overall story, though; from the way he describes the outline of the series as a trilogy, it sounds like she wouldn't have reached Westeros until the end of book two, and when the series was six books she wasn't going to get there until sometime in book five.

There's disproportionate fan hate for all the major female characters, except Brienne and Arya, who are close enough to traditional male heroism that fanboy sexism doesn't come into play.
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Old July 15 2013, 11:24 PM   #1817
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Judging by the Westeros forums.. fans hate every character? I've seen huge hate-wagons for Bran, Jon, Catelyn, Ned, Jaime, Sansa, Arya, Robb, Tyrion...

Everybody.

Loads of fans hate Sansa but she's one of my favourites, I think some of George's best writing is found in her chapters. Especially the Eyrie stuff. Really melancholic.

Loads of people on Westeros don't seem to get the series. They'll hate characters for doing bad things, and only like the characters they whitewash in to being "good guys". I'm currently banned for a week due to finally snapping at a Stannis fanboy called E-Ro.

And I love Stannis. I just don't feel the need to whitewash him so much he doesn't even resemble the character of Stannis Baratheon. He's obviously not a "good guy". He's a character who's moral absolutism frequently tip him between making likable and unlikable decisions. He's not some flawless 2-dimensional paragon of good.
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Old July 15 2013, 11:31 PM   #1818
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, one of the things that baffles me about Westeros.org is how fans of a series that's consciously intended to be as morally ambiguous as possible will bend over backwards to whitewash their favorites and demonize their least favorites. The Catelyn and Sansa hate is possibly the most baffling, but the blind love for Tyrion, Jon, and Dany is up there too. I once saw a Dany fan accuse those who criticized the character's actions of "defending slavery." Ah, no.
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Old July 15 2013, 11:47 PM   #1819
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Judging by the Westeros forums.. fans hate every character?
Don't judge those things by the reaction of Westeros.org people.

After all, it's a forum run by a guy whose reviews of the TV show can be summarized by "such and such is not verbatim from the books, therefore it's bad. OMG GRRM IS A GENIUS" and whose significant other, to put it very very mildly, doesn't know how to behave on the Internet and didn't read the last 1/3 of ASOS until recently because apparently she's very squeamish about violence or something like that.

IMO, this topic is a much better place to discuss ASOIAF than Westeros.org. Also, there are other places to do it.
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Old July 15 2013, 11:56 PM   #1820
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I actually like that Westeros is more critically minded and literarily purist about the populist TV show than say.. this forum and its gushing attitude towards the JJ Abrams Star Trek films, at the expense of bashing old Trek.

Elio totally sucks GRRM's cock though.

Brendan Moody wrote:
Yeah, one of the things that baffles me about Westeros.org is how fans of a series that's consciously intended to be as morally ambiguous as possible will bend over backwards to whitewash their favorites and demonize their least favorites.
It's just a strange way of viewing fiction. I don't love Jaime Lannister because he's the kinda guy I'd wanna hang out with. I love reading his chapters because he's a fascinating character. Dany is probably nicer but.. she's nowhere near as interesting. I hate that people evaluate the worth of fictional characters by how nice they are. It's so weird.

I'm not a big Dany fan, but she's fascinating in Book 1. Shame is that her entire character arc for the series seemingly finishes in the final chapter of that book. She's never remotely as interesting again.
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Old July 16 2013, 12:03 AM   #1821
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Disagree, I think Dany is one of the most deluded, entitled characters in the series. She has no first hand memories or experience of Westeros, yet wishes to rule. She claims to be anti-slavery, yet plans to conquer Westeros by force and have everybody bend the knee to her. She "trains" to become a good queen by using brown people as guinea pigs.
Interesting - and a very defendable position, I think. I agree that she has a healthy dose of "I'm a queen by birth, and will rule people, one way or another." But that is also the general culture of the whole world - some folks are rulers and everyone else is ruled. Stannis is likewise looking to conquer Westeros by force and have everyone bend the knee. The Lannisters are already there on that score -though less by force than by cunning since Cersei knows quite well that her children aren't the rightful rulers by any law or custom.

However, Dany's nearly the only character vying for the throne that we've seen give consideration to what justice actually is and how to mete it out. Stannis believes he already knows what justice is and that confidence, while I can see its appeal, reads to me as dangerous.

As for her "using brown people as guinea pigs" - the whole series suffers from a healthy dose of Orientalist racism. That's more an issue with Martin than any of his characters. I think Dany is working with who she has to hand. She thinks constantly of the former slaves as her children. Granted that's paternalism (or rather maternalism) reminiscent of the slave culture of the American South, but it's not like she's thinking of the Essosi as any more inferior than the small folk of Westeros. That is, she's an equal opportunity classist.


Brendan Moody wrote: View Post

There's disproportionate fan hate for all the major female characters, except Brienne and Arya, who are close enough to traditional male heroism that fanboy sexism doesn't come into play.
I'm just dipping my toes into the ASoIaF fan culture since I only just finished the books - so this is an interesting observation. One of the things I really like about Martin's work is that he manages to create fully realized female characters who are true to the limitations placed on women in a warrior culture and who are completely as interesting as the male characters and I would imagine this is part of the appeal of the books across the board. I know it has certainly been a big thing for all the female fantasy fans I know who are into the books or HBO series.
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Judging by the Westeros forums.. fans hate every character? I've seen huge hate-wagons for Bran, Jon, Catelyn, Ned, Jaime, Sansa, Arya, Robb, Tyrion...

Everybody.
Eh, it always seems that way because part of the fun of geeking out on a forum is to be wildly passionate about your opinions.

Loads of fans hate Sansa but she's one of my favourites, I think some of George's best writing is found in her chapters. Especially the Eyrie stuff. Really melancholic.
I agree - while I find her naivete tiresome at times, that is her limitation, just like every other character has theirs.


And I love Stannis. I just don't feel the need to whitewash him so much he doesn't even resemble the character of Stannis Baratheon. He's obviously not a "good guy". He's a character who's moral absolutism frequently tip him between making likable and unlikable decisions. He's not some flawless 2-dimensional paragon of good.
Good point, though I still find him much less interesting than the cast of characters surrounding him. His moral absolutism reminds me of my dad, which is probably why he can rub me the wrong way sometimes!
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Old July 16 2013, 12:17 AM   #1822
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Wow, I'd forgotten how imaginative and beautiful Bran's first dream was in the book.

Dull as fuck in the show. He just.. walks towards a raven?
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Old July 16 2013, 01:07 AM   #1823
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Stannis is a boring stick in the mud who can't seem to think for himself.
Stannis on the TV show, sure, but book Stannis is perfectly capable of thinking for himself. That's the big difference between them -- Stannis in the books is aware that Mel has her own agenda and is openly skeptical of her power, whereas Stannis in the show just does whatever she says.
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Old July 16 2013, 10:22 AM   #1824
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I actually like that Westeros is more critically minded and literarily purist about the populist TV show than say.. this forum and its gushing attitude towards the JJ Abrams Star Trek films, at the expense of bashing old Trek.
Well, I'm not a purist and I like the TV show, so I would probably get banned from there in about 10 seconds for saying that show's versions of some events were very good and not destroyed the books or something.
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Old July 16 2013, 12:47 PM   #1825
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I actually left the forum during the first season because it turned into a circlejerk over the TV show. I think you'd manage just fine. Elio and I talked once about how strange it was to suddenly be an outsider in our favorite fandom. It has been a while, so I don't know how the forums look anymore.
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Old July 16 2013, 12:58 PM   #1826
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

With the major changes made in season two there's a lot more adverse criticism of the show than there was, and a lot more heated discussion between those who still think it's great and those who think it's adequate-to-awful. No one's getting banned for either position in and of itself; in fact, I feel like the moderation is (blessedly) more open to passionate discussion than on a lot of forums.
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Old July 16 2013, 01:21 PM   #1827
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
It's not like Dany really HAD a story in S2. She just wanders around Qarth not accomplishing much of anything.

Wouldn't work for TV. Neither would her visions in the House of the Undying.
I felt the Qarth chapters in teh book were a bit aimless myself, with the exception of the House of the Undying. She shows up in the city, asks for help, doesn't get any, oh look someone sent a boat.

I'm not surprised they changed it around for TV so that something more actually happens, although I do wish they'd been more ambitious with the House scenes.
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Old July 16 2013, 01:30 PM   #1828
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

The Qarth chapters are principally an exercise in world-building and mood, a reminder that this is a fantasy series, culminating in a major piece of foreshadowing. It's unsurprising that a TV series that minimizes fantasy and doesn't do foreshadowing would want to change that, especially since the producers are allergic to reduced roles in a given season for actors they like. What is surprising is that, despite TV Qarth's superficial eventfulness, Dany is just as uselessly passive there as in the books, and in the end there's even less reason for the setting to exist. They might just as well have cut it altogether.
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Old July 16 2013, 01:47 PM   #1829
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Well I agree, I didn't feel like I had much reason to care about power struggles in a city a zillion miles from Westeros that we then leave behind.

I don't think that part is especially successful. I can just understand how the writers, not wanting to competely ditch Qarth (and have nothing for a main character to do for a season), would try to make some sort of drama happen there.

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Old July 16 2013, 01:56 PM   #1830
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, I see why they made the attempt. I just don't think they thought the changes all the way through. That, more than making changes in the first place, is where the show usually goes wrong, in my view. Game of Thrones, unlike the major dramas that made HBO a prestige brand, isn't guided by a clear sense of overarching themes, which leaves it vulnerable to cool-seeming ideas that don't actually make much sense.
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