RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,936
Posts: 5,390,060
Members: 24,725
Currently online: 591
Newest member: Miltan08

TrekToday headlines

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 24 2011, 01:03 AM   #526
Gothowitz
Lieutenant Commander
 
Gothowitz's Avatar
 
Location: At Walgreens in a state of fear
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Adeste Fideles wrote: View Post
I honestly have never heard even the faintest whisper of concern on this matter. Wouldn't you think that there'd be a considerably smaller number of female fans if there was something "strange" about the small number of female characters?
Two words: Boy Bands.
Now add "strange". Don't ask, don't tell.

You honestly never heard about that matter?
It's up there with: was Pipe-weed that "funny weed", was Tolkien a racist and did Balrogs have wings.
Gothowitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 01:06 AM   #527
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: With the Dead Poets
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Trailer looks good. Looking forward to seeing more.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 01:58 AM   #528
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Gothowitz wrote: View Post
was Pipe-weed that "funny weed"
In the films? Maybe.
In the books? No - it was called "nicotiana", meaning tobacco.
__________________
Player: I thought you were dead.
Revan: Only somewhat.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 03:52 AM   #529
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Gothowitz wrote: View Post
was Pipe-weed that "funny weed"
In the films? Maybe.
In the books? No - it was called "nicotiana", meaning tobacco.
While it is called "tobacco" in The Hobbit and The Two Towers, pipeweed can't be tobacco because tobacco isn't native to northern Europe, and Middle-Earth was intended by Tolkien as a pre-historical Europe.

So "tobacco" is probably a mistranslation from Westron.
__________________
"When David Marcus cited the great thinkers of history -- "Newton, Einstein, Surak" -- Newt Gingrich did not make his list." -- 24 January 2012

allyngibson.net
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 04:32 AM   #530
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
Gothowitz wrote: View Post
was Pipe-weed that "funny weed"
In the films? Maybe.
In the books? No - it was called "nicotiana", meaning tobacco.
While it is called "tobacco" in The Hobbit and The Two Towers, pipeweed can't be tobacco because tobacco isn't native to northern Europe, and Middle-Earth was intended by Tolkien as a pre-historical Europe.

So "tobacco" is probably a mistranslation from Westron.
If they can have potatoes in Middle-earth (which IRL weren't introduced into Europe until the 1500s), why not tobacco? Maybe the Númenóreans brought some foreign crops to Middle-earth when they were colonizing it in the Second Age.
Skywalker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 04:39 AM   #531
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Nicotiana is a reference to nicotine.
__________________
Player: I thought you were dead.
Revan: Only somewhat.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 04:41 AM   #532
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

You don't say.
Skywalker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 04:44 AM   #533
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Hanukkah Solo wrote: View Post
If they can have potatoes in Middle-earth (which IRL weren't introduced into Europe until the 1500s), why not tobacco? Maybe the Númenóreans brought some foreign crops to Middle-earth when they were colonizing it in the Second Age.
Or, it's an anachronistic mistranslation of the Red Book.

For instance, there's a reference to trains in the first chapter of The Fellowship of the Rings, and they certainly didn't have those in Middle-Earth. It's possible that Tolkien, in translating from Westron, altered some similes and references to something that modern readers would understand.
__________________
"When David Marcus cited the great thinkers of history -- "Newton, Einstein, Surak" -- Newt Gingrich did not make his list." -- 24 January 2012

allyngibson.net
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 04:47 AM   #534
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Meh, I prefer my take on it. Simpler than saying it's a mistranslation or alteration from the "original text."
Skywalker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 04:55 AM   #535
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
For instance, there's a reference to trains in the first chapter of The Fellowship of the Rings
If you mean The Fellowship of the Ring...

No, there isn't.

Hanukkah Solo wrote:
Maybe the Númenóreans brought some foreign crops to Middle-earth when they were colonizing it in the Second Age.
Looks like it, or at least that was Merry's theory:
FOTR wrote:
'All the same, observations that I have made on my own many journeys south have convinced me that the weed itself is not native to our part of the world, but came northward from the lower Anduin, whither it was, I suspect, originally brought over Sea by the Men of Westernesse.'
__________________
Player: I thought you were dead.
Revan: Only somewhat.

Last edited by Set Harth; December 24 2011 at 05:07 AM.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 05:06 AM   #536
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
For instance, there's a reference to trains in the first chapter of The Fellowship of the Rings
If you mean The Fellowship of the Ring...

No, there isn't.
I do mean Fellowship of the Ring, thanks for correcting me. I typed too fast.

And in return, I'll correct you. There is, in fact, a reference to trains in "A Long Expected Party."

From page 27 of the single volume hardcover edition:

The lights went out. A great smoke went up. It shaped itself like a mountain seen in the distance, and began to glow at the summit. It spouted green and scarlet flames. Out flew a red-golden dragon -- not life-size, but terribly life-like: fire came from his jaws, his eyes glared down; there was a roar, and he whizzed three times over the head of the crowd. They all ducked, and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion.
I even highlighted it for you, Set Harth.

Thus, it's clear that Tolkien the translator is using anachronistic ideas and concepts in his translation of the Red Book of Westmarch. Therefore, Samwise's potatoes need not be the South American tuber, and pipeweed need not be American tobacco.
__________________
"When David Marcus cited the great thinkers of history -- "Newton, Einstein, Surak" -- Newt Gingrich did not make his list." -- 24 January 2012

allyngibson.net
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 05:18 AM   #537
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

There's a difference between a simile referencing something anachronistic, which isn't actually present except as metaphor, and a direct reference to something which is actually there. Tolkien doesn't say that pipe-weed is like tobacco, just as he does not say "Bilbo liked to sit and watch the express trains go by".
__________________
Player: I thought you were dead.
Revan: Only somewhat.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 05:38 AM   #538
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Knowing that Tolkien intended for Middle-Earth to be the pre-historical past and that The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings represented the lost mythologies and epics of the ancient Britons, then one can take the reasonable view, as I am here, that what's in Tolkien's work should be reflective of what was possible in Europe circa 7,000 BCE. And tobacco and potatoes were no more possible in Europe circa 7,000 BCE than were express trains.

However, we also know that Tolkien was lazy and historical accuracy didn't interest him a great deal. He probably didn't know that potatoes and tobacco weren't native to the Old World. And the first few chapters of Fellowship don't fit with the rest of the work because they have the tone of The Hobbit (which is chock full of references to 1930s culture) and not the tone of the rest of the Legendarium (which is more akin to a medieval romance or the King James Bible), and Tolkien never bothered to fix those chapters.

(Also, since you edited in Merry's theory, it doesn't actually work. According to the maps, there was no equivalent of North and South America prior to the sinking of Numenor and the change of the world from flat to spherical. Without the Americas, there no place for tobacco and potatoes to come from.)

Truly, you can read the anachronisms in The Lord of the Rings either way. Either they're an anachronistic translation from the Westron or Tolkien was a lazy writer of fiction. I'm not trying to win an argument here. I'm just pointing out that Tolkien's literal words don't always work within the world that he assumes and that he built.
__________________
"When David Marcus cited the great thinkers of history -- "Newton, Einstein, Surak" -- Newt Gingrich did not make his list." -- 24 January 2012

allyngibson.net
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 05:42 AM   #539
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Set Harth wrote: View Post
There's a difference between a simile referencing something anachronistic, which isn't actually present except as metaphor, and a direct reference to something which is actually there. Tolkien doesn't say that pipe-weed is like tobacco, just as he does not say "Bilbo liked to sit and watch the express trains go by".
But, he did like to watch the trains after smokin' the Pipe-Weed
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 05:51 AM   #540
InklingStar
Fleet Captain
 
InklingStar's Avatar
 
Location: Olympia, Washington, USA
View InklingStar's Twitter Profile
Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

There were potatoes in ancient Europe. But then the hobbits ate them all. Then something ate all the hobbits.
__________________
"In the name of the best within you, do not sacrifice this world to those who are its worst."
InklingStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
hobbit, lord of the rings, peter jackson, tolkien

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.