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Old May 29 2011, 09:05 PM   #1
Gojira
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Speaking of Klingons....

While Klingon's are one of my favorite alien races in Trek (I prefer them with ridges thank you) there is one thing that has always made them a little implausible. They are often depicted as being barbarous and warrior like to the point it is hard to believe that they would ever develop advanced technology such as warp drive, transporter technology etc.

Anyone else feel this way?
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Old May 29 2011, 09:24 PM   #2
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

Deimos Anomaly made a good point about this here in the Why is Earth not a subjugated colony of the Klingon Empire? thread. Essentially it seems that they weren't always so belligerent but that a warrior caste came to power in the fifty years or so prior to Enterprise.
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Old May 29 2011, 09:27 PM   #3
xortex
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

The one thing that confused alot of people including even Micheal Dorn probably was that an alien had to be different than a Human, so Romulans are always speaking in an evil way, etc., etc. That 'I am a Klingon!' thing got tiresome after a while. Dorn was practically bugging out there for a while not just coming out of his appliance but out of his own skin. I think by season six he finally calmed down but it was anti-clamatic to say the least. Ron Moore's Klingons were stupid.

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Old May 29 2011, 10:35 PM   #4
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

They are often depicted as being barbarous and warrior like to the point it is hard to believe that they would ever develop advanced technology such as warp drive, transporter technology etc.
Depends on which episode you're talking about. Taking all the episodes into consideration, they've been depicted as having a fair bit of range, which you'd expect from a whole species. Some of them are actually honorable. Others are dishonorable hypocrites who are just saying the things they've been taught to say.

They do exhalt warrior-based careers above all others, which suggests their doctors, engineers, etc would not be up to snuff. (I think Martok might have mentioned that once, wanting to go to a Federation doctor for an injury rather than the sketchy Klingon ones.) But they could also steal technology or make alliances to gain technology in exchange for their considerable fighting skills.

That's probably the basis of that long-ago rumored allianace with the Romulans. Now there's a backstory I'd like to see! First contact between Klingons and Romulans. Water and oil!

Essentially it seems that they weren't always so belligerent but that a warrior caste came to power in the fifty years or so prior to Enterprise.
Eh. I see their belligerence as a species trait, not a function of culture. What held them back was probably their lack of engineering prowess. Couldn't figure out how to make a warp drive till the Rommies came along...?

Worf shouldn't be taken as an indication of the Klingons. He was a very special case, having been raised by humans and then exhibiting his idea of what Klingons are like, which isn't at all the same as how they are like. He's a lot more restrained than they're usually portrayed. His scenes with Martok are very revealing.

Martok is my idea of what a Klingon is "really" like - aggressive but not a nutcase, disciplined enough to get the job done but far from priggish. Comparing Martok to the likes of the Duras sisters and Gowron suggests that he's on the more-ethical side of the continuum, and some Klingons can be real bastards. But none of them act like they have a stick up their butts like Worf always did. Klingons probably thought he was the weirdest guy they ever met.
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Old May 29 2011, 10:43 PM   #5
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

In the classic novel Ishmael, we're told the tribal Klingons were enslaved by a race called the Karsids. The Karsids mysteriously vanished 600 years ago, leaving the Klingons ships and technology.

I think TNG hinted at a similar story, but called the advanced race the Hur'q.

IMO it's why their ships are so rusty and why they used the same D7 class ship (and nigh-on identical bird of prey) for over 225 years. The ships, or at least the designs, are actually a lot older.
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Old May 30 2011, 03:32 AM   #6
Mister_Atoz
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

Klingons in the original series were more like the Cardassians; that is generally war like but also a cunning and very intelligent adversary whose technology was generally on par with that of the Federation, but they would apply it in ways Humans would deem unethical such as the Klingon Mind Sifter.

I've always speculated that the reason the Cardassians were created was to replace some of the characteristics that were lost when TNG reduced the Klingons to guttural barbarians that somehow acquired advanced starship.

One of the things I really liked about Star Trek VI is that they reintroduced intelligent Klingons such as Chancellor Gorkon and his daughter, and Chang.

The way I see it, the Klingons were probably conquered by the Hurq during their medieval age and turned into a slave labour class. This meant that Klingons were spread across a handful of Hurq star systems and over time they learned as much about Hurq technologies as their conquerors would allow in order to be a useful slave labour class. At some point the Klingons rebelled, overthrowing and probably exterminating the Hurq then using their ships and technology spread out to conquer the remaining Hurq colonies and freeing their Klingon brethren uniting into the Klingon Empire.

I know none of that is canon, it's just speculation.
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Old May 30 2011, 05:40 AM   #7
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

I always figured that we only saw a very small fraction of the Klingon society, the warrior/military caste. The scientists and the less worthy & honorable occupations would mostly be back on the homeworld. The Klingons would take a bare minimum of scientists, engineers and doctors out on their ships with them, of course, but even then they would probably mostly stay on the ship and not interact with Starfleet that much. Remember, Captain Koloth stated that their ships don't have "nonessentials" (although in the original context of that line Koloth was talking about no women serving on Klingon ships).
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Old May 30 2011, 08:54 AM   #8
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
In the classic novel Ishmael, we're told the tribal Klingons were enslaved by a race called the Karsids. The Karsids mysteriously vanished 600 years ago, leaving the Klingons ships and technology.

I think TNG hinted at a similar story, but called the advanced race the Hur'q.

IMO it's why their ships are so rusty and why they used the same D7 class ship (and nigh-on identical bird of prey) for over 225 years. The ships, or at least the designs, are actually a lot older.
This.
There have been several mentions of the Hur'q throughout TNG and DS9 and how they enslaved the tribal Klingons.
Once the Klingon populace rebelled and managed to get rid of them... the technology was what remained and the victorious Klingons studied it and expanded into space.

I would surmise they reached a space-faring status much sooner in their development stage than they were supposed to.
It's possible they would have came out into space all by themselves (without Hur'q tech) by the time Humans did and wouldn't have developed an empire in the first place (because it has been established that there weren't that many space faring cultures when Vulcans first went into space, and most would have achieved Warp status several centuries prior to humans).
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Old May 30 2011, 10:39 PM   #9
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

I'm not too nuts about the idea of Klingons being handed their technology by another race. Makes them less than worthy adversaries if they didn't/couldn't develop it themselves if you ask me. I'm fine with the idea of them occasionally plundering the tech from the planets they conquer, though...
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Old May 31 2011, 02:31 AM   #10
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

It's much more effective when the bad guys are the nicest people in the world. In this regard I think the Rommies and the Klingons should switch traits. The Rommies should be more warrior like and the Klingons should be friendlier as they were in TOS 'cause we know it's not sincere anyway. Hitler was very nice to children, and I'd like to consider Kor as being conflicted in the Same way as the Romulan Paetor was in Balance of Terror. Kor seemed like a reasonable family man thrust into the military. This honor stuff is crap to me. He probably didn't even like his fellow Klingons who forced him to be a soldier. Like he said in Bot, survival trumps everything, or so his people believe and force him to as well, if he wants to eat and stay alive that is.
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Old May 31 2011, 04:46 AM   #11
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

Ah, the old Klingon Paradox. How could an ostensibly barbarous and belligerent species such as the Klingons have ever created an interstellar empire? I think the Klingons got most of their technology from other species. As a result, the Klingons have a slight inferiority complex and try to compensate by being the top dogs of the Alpha Quadrant.
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Old May 31 2011, 06:05 AM   #12
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Worf shouldn't be taken as an indication of the Klingons. He was a very special case, having been raised by humans and then exhibiting his idea of what Klingons are like, which isn't at all the same as how they are like. He's a lot more restrained than they're usually portrayed. His scenes with Martok are very revealing.

Martok is my idea of what a Klingon is "really" like - aggressive but not a nutcase, disciplined enough to get the job done but far from priggish. Comparing Martok to the likes of the Duras sisters and Gowron suggests that he's on the more-ethical side of the continuum, and some Klingons can be real bastards. But none of them act like they have a stick up their butts like Worf always did. Klingons probably thought he was the weirdest guy they ever met.
I disagree on your analogy of Worf being atypical Klingon. IMO that's how Klingons should behave. Worf is ice-cold which suggest not a lot of things bother and scare him and that he is calm and can hold his own in any situation. People who can't control themselves are weak and will flee at the first sign of trouble. Think about it! Normal human being would not be able to remain calm in very stressful situation (situation like being surrounded by angry enemies which want to kill and torture you); in fact very few people are ice cold and can function the way Worf does in life and death situation. People act out because they are scared...or have rage that they cannot control. Usually people who can't control their rage are like Worf who can't really seem to grasp how other feel (he's not a psychopath but have very thick skin) who were a victim of an abusive situations, usually mental abuse. I think in case like that; they don't deserve the death penalty. Their brain works differently and they can't really feel how other people feels...except maybe someone they really love like their children and spouse. If people like that are brought up correctly they usually take up jobs that pose a lot of risk of getting kill or seriously injured. They are usually good at following rules and take orders and very blunt. My grandfather was the same way; he did not drink, smoke or did any drugs, legal or illegal, but one time when a buglar broke into his house in the middle of the night, he ran after the buglar. Buglars in Thailand are no jokes; if you mess with them, they will kill you; and on several occasions he beat up armed robbers that were trying to rob people and turned them over to the police. His former occupation was a soldier.
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Old May 31 2011, 08:51 AM   #13
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

Quite frankly, making the Klingons into more like Worf and Martok gives them the appearance of being very intelligent and a resourceful culture, capable of very deep critical thinking and scientific break through. They would seem more organize and maticulate and very cunning that way...capable of thinking stretegically...not like some criminals that watch porns all day and get off on hurting weaker people who can't defend themselves.
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Old May 31 2011, 01:02 PM   #14
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

I did not get an image like your last sentence from the TOS Klingons. I'm not sure if you were talking about the TOS Klingons or early TNG ones or what, however. I can't remember where (it was probably ENT) where we learn that not all Klingons are warriors. I wouldn't necessarily accept if if it were from ENT, but it at least challenges the notion that every Klingon is a stupid, die-hard warrior.
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Old May 31 2011, 02:13 PM   #15
Distorted Humor
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Re: Speaking of Klingons....

Remember, Klingon technology is ...Odd...

As per the DS9 episode where Dukat and Kira capture a bird of prey.
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