RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,865
Posts: 5,328,858
Members: 24,556
Currently online: 465
Newest member: ndjamena

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 24 2011, 03:39 PM   #61
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Millenium made it clear that it was using ST'09-style multiverse theory for it's time travel, and not the single-stream universe model.
Rather, Millennium and ST'09 were both based on plausible science and quantum theory. The Reeves-Stevenses have always been among the most hard-science-oriented Trek novelists, and Kurtzman & Orci are pretty sciene-literate themselves. The multiple-timelines model is the one that actually makes scientific sense.



KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

And I explained in Watching the Clock how there's really no contradiction between the two models -- changing the past does create a separate timeline, and has to, because by definition two versions of the same moment in time coexist simultaneously. It's nonsense to say one version of today comes before another version of today, because they're both at the same time. The "change" comes at the moment of the original time travel, when the two timelines that coexisted from the moment of the branching reconverge back into one, with only the events of the altered timeline being remembered. So "altering the original timeline" is really just a special case of "creating branching timelines," one where the branches eventually reconverge.
So does your model assume that the Abrams timeline will overwrite the prime timeline (i.e. reconverge with it) at the moment Nero and Spock Prime travel back? If not, how is that different, in your view?
IIRC, according to "Watching the Clock", the timelines reconverge once all the changes made, and their effects, stop mattering - in this case it'd be the distant future.
Not in that case. What I asserted was that the reconvergence only happened if there was a two-way interaction between the timelines, if matter, energy, or information was exchanged in both directions. In that case they were mutually "drawn" into alignment. But if the exchange was only one-way -- if, say, someone fell through a black hole into another timeline and nothing came back in the other direction (because nothing can come out of a black hole) -- then both timelines could survive, although the altered timeline could be influenced to evolve in a similar direction to the original (say, by having the same bunch of people coincidentally end up meeting each other and serving on the same starship).
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 10:18 PM   #62
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: DS9 Millennium

Christopher wrote: View Post
although the altered timeline could be influenced to evolve in a similar direction to the original (say, by having the same bunch of people coincidentally end up meeting each other and serving on the same starship).
Ah, that's what I thought Spock Prime was doing in the movie. Influencing the new timeline as best he could, by pushing for Kirk to get the captain's chair of the Enterprise, especially when he realised that wasn't yet the case. But it probably wasn't made clear enough.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2011, 11:12 PM   #63
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

^Not the kind of influence I was talking about. I meant that the quantum-probabilistic link to another timeline would create a certain "pressure" on events to unfold in a similar direction to those in the other timeline.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2011, 11:05 PM   #64
Newspaper Taxi
Captain
 
Newspaper Taxi's Avatar
 
Location: The Midwest
Re: DS9 Millennium

One of my favorite Trek works of all time. It had some wonderful character touches. My favorites were:





That line with the two Gareks was the most emotionally affecting passage I ever read in Trek Lit. It both reveals that a small part of Garek isn't bitter and cynical and still kind of wishes for a brighter future and the overall sadness/pain he's gone through over his life. The scene also is done in Garek's 'voice' perfectly; they really nailed his performance. I suppose it doesn't hurt that I'm a big Garek fan. : )

I can see how it could be percieved as crazy, though. It certainly doesn't hold anything back in terms of limits or boundaries. The last book is pretty far out there with it's technical explanations as well.
__________________
"Circular logic will only make you dizzy, Doctor!" -- Peri
Newspaper Taxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 06:56 AM   #65
Thrawn
Rear Admiral
 
Thrawn's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: DS9 Millennium

I didn't like books 2 or 3 very much, for a variety of reasons, but I will say that I agree that they NAILED their characterization of Garak. Just about all of my favorite moments in the trilogy were Garak's.
Thrawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 04:25 PM   #66
Smellincoffee
Commodore
 
Smellincoffee's Avatar
 
Location: Heart of Dixie
View Smellincoffee's Twitter Profile
Re: DS9 Millennium

Thrawn wrote: View Post
I didn't like books 2 or 3 very much, for a variety of reasons, but I will say that I agree that they NAILED their characterization of Garak. Just about all of my favorite moments in the trilogy were Garak's.
As when they were imprisoned by Kai Weyoun and watching Thomas Riker's actions in the endgame...
__________________
DS9 CapCon Relaunch!
"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.." - Commander Montgomery Scott.
Smellincoffee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 10:25 PM   #67
CaptJimboJones
Vice Admiral
 
CaptJimboJones's Avatar
 
Location: Hotlanta
Re: DS9 Millennium

I quite enjoyed this one, and remember playing the "DS9: The Fallen" PC game a few years later without realizing that it was a direct tie-in with the book. I kept thinking, "This seems soooo familiar ... "

It's the only example I'm aware of where an official Trek game was derived from TrekLit.
__________________
"Do not fear mistakes. There are none." - Miles Davis
CaptJimboJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 10:37 PM   #68
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

^Well, it's not so much that The Fallen was derived from Millennium as that they were both derived in parallel from a common premise, each taking it in a distinct direction.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 11:01 PM   #69
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: DS9 Millennium

CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
It's the only example I'm aware of where an official Trek game was derived from TrekLit.
More that they were conceived to be complementary tie-ins.

There have been ST novels that have borrowed from official games, of course. Diane Duane reused her alien races created for "The Kobayashi Alternative" in "Doctor's Orders".

"Star Trek: Klingon" is quite different, too, in that it spun off a novel that is quite self-contained from the parent game, and it spun off an audio production of its own, read by Michael Dorn (Worf) & Robert O'Reilly (Gowron), and a full cast (I assume using many actors' recorded lines from the actual computer game).
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 11:08 PM   #70
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

The only time the movie talks about the change goes as follows:

"The contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents, that cannot be anticipated by either party.

An alternate reality.

Precisely."

An alternate reality can mean either a new reality, existing along side the other or a version that has overwritten the previous one. Since time travel to the future as well as the past exists then it's possible that the prime universe has been overwritten. We'll see in future <hah!> movies, if they choose to go in that direction.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 11:54 PM   #71
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

MattWallace wrote: View Post
An alternate reality can mean either a new reality, existing along side the other or a version that has overwritten the previous one. Since time travel to the future as well as the past exists then it's possible that the prime universe has been overwritten. We'll see in future <hah!> movies, if they choose to go in that direction.
We won't see in any future movies, since their intention now is to develop the new film continuity as its own entity, rather than continuously referring back to the old one. They did an initial alternate-timelines story to allow passing the torch, but now they're going to move on and be their own entity. So it's a safe bet that the issue will not come up again onscreen.

But it was never their intention to "erase" the original continuity. That's the whole reason they did it as an alternate timeline in the first place: to allow fans to believe that the original history still existed, that the new continuity is parallel and complementary to it rather than a replacement for it. Screenwriter Roberto Orci confirmed in many interviews that he was going by the quantum-physics model of alternate timelines coexisting in parallel and considers the "overwriting" model to be scientifically obsolete. And the tie-in comic Countdown, which was approved and overseen by Bad Robot (though not technically canonical), did show the Prime timeline continuing to exist after Spock and Nero disappeared into the past.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 12:04 AM   #72
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

I know the writers intent Christopher but unless it's on the screen it doesn't count.

Ellison's intent was to have a bunch of huge statues be the Guardians of Forever. Does that mean that the glowy doughnut isn't correct?

The comic also had Nero using V'Ger as a giant calculator to figure out when Spock would arrive, although why a miner would have the knowledge to figure that out I'm not sure.

As time travel remains totally within the realm of hypothetical you can go either way. Until Einstein came up with General Relativity nobody had any reason to believe that we couldn't travel faster than light. What was so special about light anyway? Same with time. Until we actually manage to send something, anything into the past we don't know what is or isn't possible or plausable.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 12:57 AM   #73
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: DS9 Millennium

MattWallace wrote: View Post
Ellison's intent was to have a bunch of huge statues be the Guardians of Forever. Does that mean that the glowy doughnut isn't correct?
Onscreen canonical information always overrules conflicts caused by scripted information.

I know the writers intent Christopher but unless it's on the screen it doesn't count.
But authors' intent is generally accepted until it is overwritten by onscreen, canonical evidence. The writers have told us to "think 'Parallels'", the TNG episode.

The comic also had Nero using V'Ger as a giant calculator to figure out when Spock would arrive, although why a miner would have the knowledge to figure that out I'm not sure.
And the bonus features had footage suggesting that Nero exploited other prisoners' talents to create his maps and timings, IIRC. That two-faced alien was also in the "Nero" comic.

By the way, I noticed the "Nero" trade collection on a shelf recently. The font on the spine made it look like the mini-series was called "NERD".
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 01:09 AM   #74
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

MattWallace wrote: View Post
I know the writers intent Christopher but unless it's on the screen it doesn't count.
But their intent means that, as long as they're making the movies, we can be certain that they're not going to "erase" the original timeline. Not that it's ever going to come up one way or the other anyway. And it's a cinch that nobody who follows them in producing new ST is going to want to bring down the wrath of the fanbase by "erasing" the original timeline. And of course the stories set in the original timeline are always going to exist for people to watch as videos or read as books, no matter what happens in future productions; they're certainly not going to be erased in real life. So why even worry about it as a possibility?


As time travel remains totally within the realm of hypothetical you can go either way. Until Einstein came up with General Relativity nobody had any reason to believe that we couldn't travel faster than light. What was so special about light anyway? Same with time. Until we actually manage to send something, anything into the past we don't know what is or isn't possible or plausable.
Ohh, I wish more people understood how science worked so they wouldn't spout nonsense like that. It is a complete myth that we can't know anything without direct experience. The whole point of scientific theory is to let us extrapolate beyond direct experience and make predictions about what would happen. That's its power and its value. General Relativity and quantum physics, two of the most solidly verified theories in all of science, allow us to predict a great deal about time travel and parallel histories. We can assess the probabilities with a considerable degree of confidence. Every testable prediction that General Relativity makes about space and time has been proven correct so far, and its predictions about time travel derive from exactly the same equations, simply applied under different conditions. No, we don't have absolute certainty, but we can say what the most probable outcome would be under current understanding. It's more than just guesswork.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 02:04 AM   #75
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: DS9 Millennium

It's extrapolation followed formation of a theory followed by experimentation.

See how your results compare to your theory, change your theory so it's supported by evidence and repeat.

How many experiments have we completed into time travel? How many have been successful? It doesn't matter what the theories say, if you can't test and verify your theory it's meaningless.

"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." -Albert Einstein

We have nothing that can establish the existence of paralell universes, alternate timelines, other dimentions. We can think about these all we like but to say that they MUST exist and exist in such and such a form is meaningless. Is your theory testable? If not, then it's just conjecture.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.