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Old December 24 2011, 12:14 AM   #46
Reanok
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Re: DS9 Millennium

Thanks for the info King Daniel all I remember about the game was that the Reeeves -Stevens were involved in creating the storyline for the game and the grigarri.
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Old December 24 2011, 12:23 AM   #47
F. King Daniel
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Re: DS9 Millennium

Here's what the Grigari looked like:

Not what I imagined when I read the novels.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:04 AM   #48
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Re: DS9 Millennium

[QUOTE]
Christopher wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Millennium nicely ties up some loose threads from Emissary (most glaringly the autodestruct problem)...
Actually that was the main problem I had with it. I don't think there needed to be an explanation for why the Cardassians didn't blow up the station. I mean, when Sisko and Starfleet had to abandon the station at the end of season 5, they didn't blow it up either -- because they intended to take it back eventually. I think Dukat would've certainly felt the same way -- that ceding Terok Nor to Bajor was a temporary setback. So he would've had his people smash up the place to make it less valuable to its new occupiers, but leave it intact for when it fell back into his hands, as he always wanted it to.
Hmm, I can see your point. I wonder if it was not entirely Dukat's choice to set the autodestruct, that perhaps he was pressured/ordered by higher ups at Central Command to leave the Bajorans (and possibly the Federation, if their arrival was that easily predictable) as little as possible.

On the other hand, I can't remember the details of the book right now; the Reeves-Stevens may have indicated explicitly that Dukat himself ordered the self-destruct sequence set, and indeed, wanted the station destroyed. And I agree that that would have been out of character.

Side note about Starfleet not blowing up the station at the end of season 5: I think the comparison between the two (Starfleet and the Cardassians) is a little uneven because DS9 was not Starfleets' to blow up; it was the Bajorans'. Though I think your point remains, Christopher, when you consider that the Cardassians/Dominion did not blow up the station at the end of Sacrifice of Angels. That clearly would have been strategically sound, because it would have made it very difficult for Starfleet to defend the wormhole. So there would appear to be a canon precedent for the Cardassian Union not completely destroying their own infrastructure when they are forced to abandon it, presumably because they like to keep the door open of gaining it back.

I am curious what specific things people find negative about Millennium. Christopher pointed out the unnecessary self-destruct sequence, DGCatAniSiri notes the rather blatant foreshadowing of Jadzia's death (I agree with you, by the way, I found that to be a bit over the top), and Relayer1 didn't care for the reset button; are there other aspects that people didn't like?
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Old December 24 2011, 01:29 AM   #49
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Re: DS9 Millennium

I don't buy the idea that following your exact trajectory when slingshotting around the sun again is the difference between returing to your original future or the one altered by your actions in the past - the "Feynmen curve" or whatever it was called.

BIG SPOILERS:
Also, the mission of the USS Phoenix seemed to be fundamentally flawed. An alternate reality is an alternate reality. Go back, make changes and create a new future. So going back, making changes (planting bombs), hiding them and setting them to detonate only after the timeship's point of departure is wishful thinking. Just because the changes can't be seen doesn't mean they weren't made. The Phoenix should have simply vanished and whatever they did in the past affect some other timeline, not the one they left. Like the 23rd century Klingon war fleets sent to Earth's past, or like Spock and Nero in "Countdown"/ST'09.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:37 AM   #50
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Re: DS9 Millennium

Christopher wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
I enjoyed it my last time through, though about my one complaint was that it felt like it was pointing a flashing neon light at Jadzia about her upcoming death. It was like being hit by the anvil of foreshadowing.
Except the trilogy was published after the series ended (indeed, the frame story situates it as essentially a post-finale story), so it wasn't really foreshadowing, it was following up. It was meant to be read and reacted to with the full awareness of what had come after its events.

And I did like the poetic symmetry that, in a sense,
Okay, 'anvil of foreshadowing' may not have been the correct term, but I still felt like on a few occasions the narrative went over the top in establishing the idea that Jadzia was going to die in the near future. I don't necessarily argue against the moment you bring up on the symmetry side, but along with the other moments, it felt like too much.

If the trilogy were taken on its own, apart from the show itself, I'd enjoy the subversion of the 'make a character happiest, kill them soon after' trope, but with the greater tapestry of the DS9 story, it felt like too much for me. I still enjoy the trilogy, it was just a few points against.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:41 AM   #51
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Re: DS9 Millennium

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Here's what the Grigari looked like:

Not what I imagined when I read the novels.
That may be only one possible permutation of what a Grigari can look like. I always imagined them as being rather Borg-like, in that Grigari technology takes over other life forms and eventually makes them completely machinelike. Kind of like Adrik Thorsen in Federation. So depending on what the 'root' individual looks like, it could be anything.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:54 AM   #52
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Re: DS9 Millennium

DS9forever wrote: View Post
There is a reference to Farpoint Station being in existence, but I think one of the Titan novels have since stated Farpoint was never built.
It's just a clay shed. Nothing to boast about.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:43 AM   #53
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Re: DS9 Millennium

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Also, the mission of the USS Phoenix seemed to be fundamentally flawed. An alternate reality is an alternate reality. Go back, make changes and create a new future. So going back, making changes (planting bombs), hiding them and setting them to detonate only after the timeship's point of departure is wishful thinking. Just because the changes can't be seen doesn't mean they weren't made. The Phoenix should have simply vanished and whatever they did in the past affect some other timeline, not the one they left. Like the 23rd century Klingon war fleets sent to Earth's past, or like Spock and Nero in "Countdown"/ST'09.
So far the preponderance of evidence seems to be in favor of time travel altering the original timeline, rather than creating a separate one. We've seen it time and time again, in "City on the Edge of Forever" and "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Year of Hell" and First Contact and others.

Star Trek '09 is the only canonical example I can think of with time travel creating branches instead of looping back on itself. There may be others, but "one timeline with alterations" is far more common.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:51 AM   #54
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Re: DS9 Millennium

"Yesteryear" pretty much assumes that the Spock timeline and the Thelin timeline are coexisting parallels. When Spock goes back to restore his own past, he wishes Thelin long life and prosperity in his own world, implying he expects that world to survive. (And Kirk describes the Guardian in his log as "the focus of all the timelines of our galaxy.")

And I explained in Watching the Clock how there's really no contradiction between the two models -- changing the past does create a separate timeline, and has to, because by definition two versions of the same moment in time coexist simultaneously. It's nonsense to say one version of today comes before another version of today, because they're both at the same time. The "change" comes at the moment of the original time travel, when the two timelines that coexisted from the moment of the branching reconverge back into one, with only the events of the altered timeline being remembered. So "altering the original timeline" is really just a special case of "creating branching timelines," one where the branches eventually reconverge.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:56 AM   #55
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Re: DS9 Millennium

I always sorta figured that there was a little more method to time travel than has been let on, and that Picard, despite his Irumodic Syndrome, had figured out how to guarantee that the Phoenix would be going back in their own timeline (ą la First Contact, and not Star Trek '09).
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Old December 24 2011, 05:01 AM   #56
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Re: DS9 Millennium

Christopher wrote: View Post

And I explained in Watching the Clock how there's really no contradiction between the two models -- changing the past does create a separate timeline, and has to, because by definition two versions of the same moment in time coexist simultaneously. It's nonsense to say one version of today comes before another version of today, because they're both at the same time. The "change" comes at the moment of the original time travel, when the two timelines that coexisted from the moment of the branching reconverge back into one, with only the events of the altered timeline being remembered. So "altering the original timeline" is really just a special case of "creating branching timelines," one where the branches eventually reconverge.
So does your model assume that the Abrams timeline will overwrite the prime timeline (i.e. reconverge with it) at the moment Nero and Spock Prime travel back? If not, how is that different, in your view?
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Old December 24 2011, 10:31 AM   #57
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Re: DS9 Millennium

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
So does your model assume that the Abrams timeline will overwrite the prime timeline (i.e. reconverge with it) at the moment Nero and Spock Prime travel back? If not, how is that different, in your view?
"Countdown" showed us that Picard, Data and the injured Worf still existed when Nero and Spock vanished. Bob Orci told us to "think 'Parallels' (TNG)" when trying to understand the new movie.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:09 PM   #58
F. King Daniel
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Re: DS9 Millennium

ATimson wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Also, the mission of the USS Phoenix seemed to be fundamentally flawed. An alternate reality is an alternate reality. Go back, make changes and create a new future. So going back, making changes (planting bombs), hiding them and setting them to detonate only after the timeship's point of departure is wishful thinking. Just because the changes can't be seen doesn't mean they weren't made. The Phoenix should have simply vanished and whatever they did in the past affect some other timeline, not the one they left. Like the 23rd century Klingon war fleets sent to Earth's past, or like Spock and Nero in "Countdown"/ST'09.
So far the preponderance of evidence seems to be in favor of time travel altering the original timeline, rather than creating a separate one. We've seen it time and time again, in "City on the Edge of Forever" and "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Year of Hell" and First Contact and others.

Star Trek '09 is the only canonical example I can think of with time travel creating branches instead of looping back on itself. There may be others, but "one timeline with alterations" is far more common.
Millenium made it clear that it was using ST'09-style multiverse theory for it's time travel, and not the single-stream universe model. It was the trilogy's inconstistancy with itself that bothered me, nothing to do with the latest movie's retcons.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:17 PM   #59
F. King Daniel
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Re: DS9 Millennium

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

And I explained in Watching the Clock how there's really no contradiction between the two models -- changing the past does create a separate timeline, and has to, because by definition two versions of the same moment in time coexist simultaneously. It's nonsense to say one version of today comes before another version of today, because they're both at the same time. The "change" comes at the moment of the original time travel, when the two timelines that coexisted from the moment of the branching reconverge back into one, with only the events of the altered timeline being remembered. So "altering the original timeline" is really just a special case of "creating branching timelines," one where the branches eventually reconverge.
So does your model assume that the Abrams timeline will overwrite the prime timeline (i.e. reconverge with it) at the moment Nero and Spock Prime travel back? If not, how is that different, in your view?
IIRC, according to "Watching the Clock", the timelines reconverge once all the changes made, and their effects, stop mattering - in this case it'd be the distant future.
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Old December 24 2011, 01:46 PM   #60
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Re: DS9 Millennium

I loved Millennium to bits. Such an epic tale that managed to avoid fanwankery.

If I had a gripe, it's that it was difficult to imagine such a big adventure occurring during DS9's fairly tight timeline, not to mention that it was never mentioned by anyone during the series. They did sort of acknowledge that by having Jake later reflect that it all seemed like a bit of a dream and was hard to remember. But all in all, that's a very minor quibble with such a great read.
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