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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 7 2011, 10:52 PM   #31
Gorn Captain
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

I think a huge stretch occurred in Assignment: Earth. They just randomly were ordered to time travel to observe Earth in 1968?!?
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Old March 8 2011, 12:03 AM   #32
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Gorn Captain wrote: View Post
I think a huge stretch occurred in Assignment: Earth. They just randomly were ordered to time travel to observe Earth in 1968?!?
Of course, that rather awkward contrivance was needed to make Roddenberry's spinoff idea work as a Star Trek episode.
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Old March 8 2011, 01:07 AM   #33
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

None of them. I guess I was never really concerned with everything needing to fit together or be perfect.

I just enjoyed it for the fun sci-fi FANTASY show that it was.

I was more bothered by the plain bad episodes that would come up now andthen.
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Old March 8 2011, 03:59 AM   #34
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

maryh wrote:
I think it is sexist both ways.

The black haired girl struts past McCoy and easily get all the info she needs out of him. Madga did the same to a communications officer and gets a communicator as well. All these men fall for the pretty faces so easily, the miners are even duped into marriage merely based upon a pretty face.

According to Mudd:
MUDD: Well, what it does is give you more of whatever you have. Well, with men, it makes them more muscular. Women, rounder. Men, more aggressive. Women, more feminine,


All this translates to me into showing that men of the 23rd century will still be a sucker for a pretty face, and a nice set of knockers... to the point of endangering the ship.

Did the Venus Pill actually effect the men by some unexplained force (besides sexual attraction)? That would be odd since the men did not take any drugs. I am open to the possibility of it though.

I think this does further demonstrate my idea -- that the sexism is applied selectively.
I don't think most of your examples of masculine misbehavior, MaryH, are comparable in shear...infamy, really, to McGivers and Palamas. They didn't just show bad judgement - they actually went to the other side, at least for a while. There's a difference between foolish behavior and treason, and they were actually treasonous. And all for loooOOOOoooove.

Re. "Mudd's Women," I was also under the impression that there was something about the women - something more than plain ol' sex appeal - that drew men to them. I haven't looked up the exact dialog but I did watch this episode recently and isn't there something in there about Kirk going on and on about how incredibly beautiful they are, and McCoy counters with something along the lines of how they aren't really any more beautiful "pound for pound" than lots of other women? That does indicate that the Venus drug does something besides just make them attractive. I don't know what. Pheromones or something? We're never told so who knows?

But in any case, one difference is that McCoy might indeed act like a lust-crazed goofball in this particular episode, but he's in lots of episodes where he doesn't act that way, and so we know that he's not always like that. Marla? Not so much. She's only in one episode, and in that one, she's an idiot - a besotted fool who cares more about a hunky guy than in her shipmates and the oaths she took. It seems to me that's a lot worse than anything even Kirk did. Kirk made lots of mistakes but I don't think any of them can be called treason.

The one episode I can think of where a male crew member did do something along the same lines as McGiver and Palamas is "In the Wink of an Eye," when that one crewman, after being taken by the Scolosians, gives in and joins them. That could definitely count as treason.

But if I remember correctly, doesn't he die in the end? Whereas McGivers (I can't remember what happens to Palamas) is pardoned. Because she did it for loooOOOOoooove. So basically, less was expected of women than of men - there are lower standards for women than for men. Can anything be more sexist than that?
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Old March 8 2011, 04:31 AM   #35
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Wingsley wrote: View Post
All this having been said, the story does make me wonder if there were a way to tell it without all the cheesy theatrics. (I think it would've been next to impossible to tell a more direct story about children being manipulated by an alien menace in 1968.)
Wasn't that kind of what The Exorcist did? If you just substituted aliens...
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Old March 8 2011, 04:37 AM   #36
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

maryh wrote: View Post
Makes men look like immature weaklings who care what "the guys" think. They might possibly doubt his masculinity if he behaved out of love.

Seems like the usual selective sensitivity to sexism.
Your examples actually reflect poorly on BOTH parties. Portraying women as poisonous Delilah-temptresses, and also the weakness of the men involved.

But if you want to hear about anti-male sexism, you should skip over to the DS9 forum and hear my anti-Jadzia rant. (Seriously, she treated men like TRASH...Bashir and Worf both, and it disgusts me.)

Gorn Captain wrote: View Post
I think a huge stretch occurred in Assignment: Earth. They just randomly were ordered to time travel to observe Earth in 1968?!?
In its own time it's a strange conceit. But in retrospect...I can actually defend this one. I think that 1968 was one of the years where American society came the closest to falling apart, with the benefit of being able to look at it in retrospect. (I don't think we are quite at such a flashpoint again, but I think we could easily go that way without much of a push.)
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Old March 8 2011, 06:28 AM   #37
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Watching the episodes as an adult, it always throws me when they cut to a stock shot of Sulu and that actor named Billy something manning Chekov's station, when Chekov has already been shown manning that station. But I never noticed it as a child.
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Old March 8 2011, 07:32 AM   #38
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Gorn Captain wrote: View Post
I think a huge stretch occurred in Assignment: Earth. They just randomly were ordered to time travel to observe Earth in 1968?!?
In its own time it's a strange conceit. But in retrospect...I can actually defend this one. I think that 1968 was one of the years where American society came the closest to falling apart, with the benefit of being able to look at it in retrospect. (I don't think we are quite at such a flashpoint again, but I think we could easily go that way without much of a push.)
Spock did say that history recorded that the events unfolded exactly like they saw. So perhaps whoever ordered the Enterprise back in time, already knew this, and so they sent the ship to 1968 just *so* Kirk and crew would fulfill their function in history?
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Old March 8 2011, 08:31 AM   #39
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

JustKate wrote: View Post
The one episode I can think of where a male crew member did do something along the same lines as McGiver and Palamas is "In the Wink of an Eye," when that one crewman, after being taken by the Scolosians, gives in and joins them. That could definitely count as treason.

But if I remember correctly, doesn't he die in the end? Whereas McGivers (I can't remember what happens to Palamas) is pardoned. Because she did it for loooOOOOoooove.
McGivers wasnt pardoned. Kirk gave her a choice of facing a court martial or joining Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha 5. She chose to go with Khan.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Spock did say that history recorded that the events unfolded exactly like they saw. So perhaps whoever ordered the Enterprise back in time, already knew this, and so they sent the ship to 1968 just *so* Kirk and crew would fulfill their function in history?
Ah, the old predestination paradox. Like having to go back in time and have sex with your own great-grandmother so that . . . never mind.
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Old March 8 2011, 07:30 PM   #40
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

JustKate wrote: View Post



Re. "Mudd's Women," I was also under the impression that there was something about the women - something more than plain ol' sex appeal - that drew men to them. I haven't looked up the exact dialog but I did watch this episode recently and isn't there something in there about Kirk going on and on about how incredibly beautiful they are, and McCoy counters with something along the lines of how they aren't really any more beautiful "pound for pound" than lots of other women? That does indicate that the Venus drug does something besides just make them attractive. I don't know what. Pheromones or something? We're never told so who knows?
Wow - this is fun! My first thread and people actually discussing it. I can see how this could become addictive.

Anyway, about Mudd's Women, I'm confused by the discussion here because I always thought that the drug was determined to be just a placebo - that the powerful attractiveness that the women were supposedly radiating was based on nothing more than their profound belief that they were actually supernaturally attractive. That's why I found the freshly styled hair and new makeup so ridiculous in that context. I can actually buy into this notion because I've known plain people that convinced others they were attractive and pretty people who convinced others they were plain just by their own confidence or lack thereof.

Which is one of the reasons I always found this particular show interesting even though I can't really relax into it and enjoy it. This was one of just a few that I can remember where nothing extraordinary was really happening - no superpowered aliens, no monsters, no bizarre civilizations. Just some underprivileged women looking to improve their lot in life and some very lonely and horny miners on the backside of nowhere, and a con man of course peddling phony wonder drugs. Like some of the early first season shows, it depended more on the novelty of Star Trek's premise, than on any additional far-out science fiction premises.
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Old March 8 2011, 10:06 PM   #41
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

skylark14 wrote: View Post
Like some of the early first season shows, it depended more on the novelty of Star Trek's premise, than on any additional far-out science fiction premises.
So glad you are here! That's an interesting observation I must mull.

Mudd's Women is about the only episode I haven't watched in the last three years. It's kind of dull, iirc, too.

The leering Spock is AWFUL!
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Old March 8 2011, 10:35 PM   #42
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

skylark14 wrote: View Post
Anyway, about Mudd's Women, I'm confused by the discussion here because I always thought that the drug was determined to be just a placebo
No, there was a real venus drug, but the pills given to Eve at the end of the episodes were placebo.
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Old March 9 2011, 12:04 AM   #43
Olive, the Other Reindeer
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Myko wrote: View Post
skylark14 wrote: View Post
Anyway, about Mudd's Women, I'm confused by the discussion here because I always thought that the drug was determined to be just a placebo
No, there was a real venus drug, but the pills given to Eve at the end of the episodes were placebo.
And the other two women looked way uglier when the effects of the drug wore off. Eve basically looked like she'd just woken up after an all-night bender.
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Old March 9 2011, 12:33 AM   #44
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

[QUOTE=scotpens;4791127]
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post

Space Therapist wrote: View Post
Miri and Omega Glory are two that are like that for me. Oh, and The paradise Syndrome too. I like the story but it is hard to beleive that this planet has inhabitants that look and act just like native Americans.
That was explained thus:

SPOCK: . . The obelisk is a marker, just as I thought. It was left by a super-race known as the Preservers. They passed through the galaxy rescuing primitive cultures which were in danger of extinction and seeding them, so to speak, where they could live and grow.
MCCOY: I've always wondered why there were so many humanoids scattered through the galaxy.
SPOCK: So have I. Apparently the Preservers account for a number of them.
I re-watched it yesterday. I had completely forgotten that part. I with draw my complaint about this episode.
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Old March 9 2011, 08:56 AM   #45
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Re: Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

As ridiculous as some of the episodes may be, none of them create suspension-of-disbelief problems that interfere with my enjoyment of the episodes.

Thats probably because I watched them over and over and over again starting when I was a very young child. These stories were strongly imprinted on my mind before I had the knowledge and cognitive skills to realize there was anything wrong with them. In a primitive brain sense, these stories may be more real to me than reality because I learned them first. Now that Im older I can think, Hey, wait a second, thats not right... but it still feels right.

In another thread a while ago, I complained about what I perceived as serious logical flaws in the TUC screenplay. Somebody asked why I wasnt similarly bothered by logical flaws in TWOK. I didnt really have an answer at the time, but now I think its because I was 12 years old when I first saw TWOK and 21 when I first saw TUC.
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