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Old March 15 2011, 03:49 AM   #106
Saquist
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

[QUOTE=Timo;4808706]The BoP issue is not all that difficult IMHO, because the Rotarran serves as a nice yardstick that gives results consistent with most other yardsticks, while the smallest BoP sizes are anomalious even within the context of "WotW" (and might indicate yet another subtype, one that easily dies from single shots of DS9 phasers).

Where else do Galor issues crop up besides "Defiant"?

...The good old solution to both Defiant and BoP size issues is to postulate that cloaks create residual visual distortion even when turned off.


There is a very odd effect for the BoP's in Way of the Warrior. As they fire on the Galor the green splash impacts the BoP's travel over the top of the ship which screws up our scaling royally.

We assume the Vorcha's were normal sizes. They may not have been.

We also assume the Negvhar is Comparable to the Galaxy which is a comparative we've never seen. It may be much larger and these Vorcha may have been larger than Galaxy. I propose this because if the BoP has varying sizes and the Neghvar was seen as 3500 meters long in Shattered Mirror then perhaps the overall scale is not what it seems.

Being able to fit a reactor of output X in a small spaceframe doesn't necessarily lead to the ability to build a reactor of output Y>X. If reactor size translated to power, the Galaxy could have easily been built with a reactor ten times the current size, by rearranging the interiors...

Timo Saloniemi
I'm not going for the visual distortion in pure conjecture.
Not every flaw has a sensible explanation and I don't think this is one of them.

The necessary logic of ability is that the Galaxy could have been produced with multiple reactors of similar range size as Defiant to produce more than 10 times the power.
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Old March 15 2011, 09:52 AM   #107
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

There is a very odd effect for the BoP's in Way of the Warrior. As they fire on the Galor the green splash impacts the BoP's travel over the top of the ship which screws up our scaling royally.
Also interestingly, in "WotW", the battle against the station features uniformly tiny BoPs, but the attack on Dukat's ship features three BoPs that are never seen in the same frame. It's quite possible that one of them was of a different size than the other two, and that this excuse could be used for picking and choosing our scaling shots against either Dukat's or Sisko's ships or the later intervening Vor'Cha.

The necessary logic of ability is that the Galaxy could have been produced with multiple reactors of similar range size as Defiant to produce more than 10 times the power.
Where do we get the impression that the Galaxy would lack power? For all we know, she already has fifty times as much as the Defiant.

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Old March 15 2011, 10:04 AM   #108
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Timo wrote: View Post
Also interestingly, in "WotW", the battle against the station features uniformly tiny BoPs, but the attack on Dukat's ship features three BoPs that are never seen in the same frame. It's quite possible that one of them was of a different size than the other two, and that this excuse could be used for picking and choosing our scaling shots against either Dukat's or Sisko's ships or the later intervening Vor'Cha.
That's true enough/

Where do we get the impression that the Galaxy would lack power? For all we know, she already has fifty times as much as the Defiant.

Timo Saloniemi
By comparison of their common targets.

Galaxy couldn't destroy the BoP in Generation or even cripple it in the same time frame as Defiant.

Galaxy couldn't destroy, cripple or damager 3 attack ships in Jem'Hadar.

And while firepower and reactor output isn't a direct correlation we know Galaxy's phaser can double normal output and likely according to one episode...apparently triple it's phaser power turning them white, that the Galaxy doesn't normally use that power setting in combat situations implies heavily that power is the problem on a Galaxy class starship.
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Old March 15 2011, 02:18 PM   #109
Timo
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Galaxy couldn't destroy the BoP in Generation or even cripple it in the same time frame as Defiant.
Different BsoP. The first was a supership souped up by Soran, after all. Its ability to withstand E-D phaser blasts surprised the hell out of everybody, including the Klingons themselves.

Galaxy couldn't destroy, cripple or damager 3 attack ships in Jem'Hadar.
Yet later, it appeared that any random Starfleet ship could. Probably an issue unrelated to power, and more related to the deepening degree of understanding of Jem'Hadar defenses and offenses.

that the Galaxy doesn't normally use that power setting in combat situations implies heavily that power is the problem on a Galaxy class starship.
It's a problem for the Defiant in that case, too. And for every other starship ever designed. Otherwise, they'd all always fly with shields 150% up and weapons hot...

Really, the intuitive view of the Defiant/Galaxy relationship shouldn't involve fancy ideas of installing the former's powerplant in the latter. Torpedo boats in WWII had gasoline engines in the thousand hp range, giving up to 40 knots; battleships had steam powerplants in the ten thousand hp range, giving up to 30 knots. It would have made zero sense to power the battleships with big diesels, or the torpedo boats with small steam engines (although both configurations were tried out, in desperation and for complex reasons) - and it certainly wouldn't have made any sense to power a battleship with ten PT boat engines!

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Old March 15 2011, 02:40 PM   #110
Saquist
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Timo wrote: View Post
Different BsoP. The first was a supership souped up by Soran, after all. Its ability to withstand E-D phaser blasts surprised the hell out of everybody, including the Klingons themselves.[
When was this said?

Yet later, it appeared that any random Starfleet ship could. Probably an issue unrelated to power, and more related to the deepening degree of understanding of Jem'Hadar defenses and offenses.
Actually we never see any other Federation ship fire on an attack ship or any other Dominion ship other than Defiant.

It's a problem for the Defiant in that case, too. And for every other starship ever designed. Otherwise, they'd all always fly with shields 150% up and weapons hot...
I would need that explicitly expressed.
From what we know and has been said additional power to the shields usually supplemented by Auxiliary power. That makes sense to express Main Powers normal output to the shields as 100 Percent. That's probably no how it works though. 100 percent is likely the normal operating output that the shields are rated at.

You see with Sovereign at least some things about it's power plant makes sense. In Nemesis at least it took less shots to it's dorsal shield than when iti's Warp Engines were engaged. Once the Dorsal shield had regenerated they were stronger. And contrary to popular belief that Sovereign shields were being sustained purely on Auxiliary power at 75% it was likely an effect of it's regenerative shields.
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Old March 15 2011, 10:08 PM   #111
Timo
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

When was this said?
More like shouted. "Our shields are HOLDING!" The Twisted Sisters were amazed that they were still alive, and only relatively late in the game decided they could actually start doing lethal damage, such as target the bridge where Riker to his amazement was running out of options.

Actually we never see any other Federation ship fire on an attack ship or any other Dominion ship other than Defiant.
The Centaur, an ancient little tub, was certainly making good headway in blasting one to bits...

The advantage that the Jem'Hadar had over Starfleet designs seemed to evaporate between "Jem'Hadar" and "Call to Arms", but not at once, so that the Dominion still was surprised by the final loss of this advantage in the latter episode. It was probably just a matter of tuning the phasers right - and the Defiant was a ship designed to defeat an opponent for whom tuning was everything, namely the Borg. Once the anti-Borg cannon of the Defiant had taken a few dozen "ranging shots" at the enemy and enough of those got through, Starfleet would know which frequencies worked and which did not. "The Search" may thus already have been a turning point there.

Klingon BoPs were also blasting Jem'Hadar to smithereens left and right, suggesting that there was nothing special about the Defiant in terms of weapons output. She was a featherweight warship, just like several other designs out there, and Starfleet had plenty of uses for featherweight warships. But she could do zip to a big Jem'Hadar battleship, which is where the mediumweight and heavyweight warships probably came in (after all, somebody dealt with those enemies, even if we didn't see clear kills on screen).

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Old March 16 2011, 12:48 AM   #112
Saquist
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Timo wrote: View Post
More like shouted. "Our shields are HOLDING!"
More accurately when did a character explicitly express that the shields or ship had been altered by Dr. Soran?

The Centaur, an ancient little tub, was certainly making good headway in blasting one to bits...
Wasn't the attack ship still completely functional even after hedging it's shots against the Centaur? Don't forget too that the a Rio Grand also took out an attack ship.

The advantage that the Jem'Hadar had over Starfleet designs seemed to evaporate between "Jem'Hadar" and "Call to Arms", but not at once, so that the Dominion still was surprised by the final loss of this advantage in the latter episode
More like it was never directly addressed despite what Weyoun says in Call to Arms we can't summarily assume (Or rather I can't) that every ship received the massive refit that DS9 recieved just before Way of the Warrior.

The most eminite reason is that we still see Federation hips taking MASSIVE against Dominion ships. There was never any presense of shield effect iin these cases just like there wasn't with Odyssey. That was shown time after time in Sacrifice o Angles


Klingon BoPs were also blasting Jem'Hadar to smithereens left and right, suggesting that there was nothing special about the Defiant in terms of weapons output.
Suggesting but not ultimately proving. Remember a the Generations Bird of Prey did destroy a Galaxy class starship.
And the Defiant routinely shrugged off Bird's of Prey. Defiant pentrated the shields of a Bird of Prey with a glancing shot and obliterated it in 3 shots. A total of 2 seconds. Clearly Galaxy was incapable of dealing out that short of power.

She was a featherweight warship, just like several other designs out there, and Starfleet had plenty of uses for featherweight warships. But she could do zip to a big Jem'Hadar battleship, which is where the mediumweight and heavyweight warships probably came in (after all, somebody dealt with those enemies, even if we didn't see clear kills on screen).
From my estimates of Federation Fleet size the Federation outnumbered the Dominion more than 2 to 1. The Cardassisns while extremely weak to Federation technology clearly even those odds. With the Klingons with it's own 10,000 or so ships the odds were in the their favor. I think in the end it was numbers not firepower.
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Old March 16 2011, 09:59 AM   #113
Timo
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

More accurately when did a character explicitly express that the shields or ship had been altered by Dr. Soran?
When they went to toilet, of course.

I think the implicit proof here is sufficient: the E-D failed to penetrate the shields of this BoP that benefited from the assistance of a supervillain, against everybody's expectations, but did manage to destroy other shielded BoP opponents elsewhere, including larger ships of that design in "Yesterday's Enterprise" when somewhat wounded.

Wasn't the attack ship still completely functional even after hedging it's shots against the Centaur?
Checking on the episode, yeah, the warp chase fight didn't appear to damage Sisko's ship (save for taking out the comm system and one steering thruster), and Sisko dropped out of warp solely in order to stop Captain Reynolds from suicidally pursuing him deeper into Dominion territory.

Don't forget too that the a Rio Grand also took out an attack ship.
True enough - and again thanks to superior knowledge of tech weaknesses, rather than firepower.

There was never any presense of shield effect iin these cases just like there wasn't with Odyssey.
There was no shield effect on the runabouts, either, for the most case, yet they shrugged off Dominion shots on several occasions. When the Federation fought the Klingon Empire, visible shields were also often absent, and kills were scored - without the benefit of phased polaron beams, and without any reason to assume that the enemy would have lacked shields altogether.

Clearly Galaxy was incapable of dealing out that short of power.
How so? The E-D was always stated to be capable of dealing with a BoP on short notice ("Matter of Honor", ST:GEN), and it was Picard's desire for a peaceful outcome or a plot complication that stopped this from happening.

We know the Defiant can kill starships her own size, and do some (usually invisible) harm to her biggers and betters. We know the BoP can do the same. We know somebody destroyed enemy ships in those big battles, even though for some curious reason no definite kills were ever shown being made by Starfleet. It's just not necessary to categorically decide that the Defiant ought to be a special case, the only vessel in Starfleet capable of destroying her opponents - indeed, if she were, she would have been taken off Sisko's hands and put to actual combat use.

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Old March 16 2011, 02:55 PM   #114
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Sisko takes home a Jem'Hadar bug in "The Ship", from which they presumably learnt a lot. Weyoun was staggered that the station's shields were holding in "Call to Arms", presumably they learnt enough about Dominion ships to be able to go toe-to-toe with them.

Besides, the Defiant had been blasting them apart since "The Die is Cast" anyway. It's standard Trek villainy to have an initially vastly superior enemy become equal after three episodes.
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Old March 16 2011, 03:07 PM   #115
Timo
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Which makes perfect sense in the Trek context, since the enemy typically has a technological edge and the Federation is good at this reverse-engineering thing.

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Old March 16 2011, 04:27 PM   #116
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Precisely, and at improvisation. Even the Vorta Keevan notes their famed ability to "turn rocks into replicators".
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Old March 17 2011, 04:54 PM   #117
Saquist
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Timo wrote: View Post
I think the implicit proof here is sufficient: the E-D failed to penetrate the shields of this BoP that benefited from the assistance of a supervillain, against everybody's expectations, but did manage to destroy other shielded BoP opponents elsewhere, including larger ships of that design in "Yesterday's Enterprise" when somewhat wounded.
There is no such thing as..."implicit proof" that's saying indirectlyl proven....and that's not possible because proven is an absolute. It's a...possibility....

But i think it's far more possible that this Bird of Prey was a variation of the K'vort with adjustable wings maybe a bit smaller but still stronger than a small scout BoP.

Checking on the episode, yeah, the warp chase fight didn't appear to damage Sisko's ship (save for taking out the comm system and one steering thruster), and Sisko dropped out of warp solely in order to stop Captain Reynolds from suicidally pursuing him deeper into Dominion territory.
yet...a runabout as capable of spearing it's warp nacelle.
This is the problem I have with DS9. They could never decide how strong a ship was compared to another.

How so? The E-D was always stated to be capable of dealing with a BoP on short notice ("Matter of Honor", ST:GEN), and it was Picard's desire for a peaceful outcome or a plot complication that stopped this from happening.
It depends on the BoP.

We know the Defiant can kill starships her own size, and do some (usually invisible) harm to her biggers and betters. We know the BoP can do the same. We know somebody destroyed enemy ships in those big battles, even though for some curious reason no definite kills were ever shown being made by Starfleet. It's just not necessary to categorically decide that the Defiant ought to be a special case, the only vessel in Starfleet capable of destroying her opponents - indeed, if she were, she would have been taken off Sisko's hands and put to actual combat use.

Timo Saloniemi
I can only point you to the ships it took out

2Km Neghvar (twice)
467 meter Excelsior
300-400 meter Galors and Keldons
300 meter Breen Warships
95 meter attack ships

it's a super ship.
There maybe anomalies but they don't lie with Defiant but rather how they portray other ships.
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Old March 17 2011, 07:35 PM   #118
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Saquist wrote: View Post
This is the problem I have with DS9. They could never decide how strong a ship was compared to another.
That's true for all the Star Trek series. Each ship was only as strong as the plot dictated for the right dramatic effect.
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Old March 17 2011, 07:58 PM   #119
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
This is the problem I have with DS9. They could never decide how strong a ship was compared to another.
That's true for all the Star Trek series. Each ship was only as strong as the plot dictated for the right dramatic effect.

It maybe generally true for all of Trek but it's at it's most excessive in DS9.

What' stronger...A runabout or an attack ship?

In the Maquis episodes the runabouts couldn't take one shot from a raider with out significant damage.

Later the runabouts are taking multiples shots from attack ships that Miranda class ships have gotten blown away with.

Two Runnabouts and a Galaxy can't damage one attack ship with concentrated fire. But one runabout blast the nacelle of an attack ship.

A Cardassian Galor gets beat up by a Galaxy
A Cardassian blast an attack ship in one shot
But a Galaxy can't take out an attack ship.

A Bird of Prey Blast an attack ship in 3 shots
Defiant blast and attack ship in 3 shots
Defiant blast a BoP in 3 shots
2 BoP's and a Vorcha can't take down the Defiant

(It never makes any sense in DS9)
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Old March 18 2011, 01:05 AM   #120
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Re: Defiant Deck Plans?

Saquist wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
This is the problem I have with DS9. They could never decide how strong a ship was compared to another.
That's true for all the Star Trek series. Each ship was only as strong as the plot dictated for the right dramatic effect.

It maybe generally true for all of Trek but it's at it's most excessive in DS9.
Maybe, but one could argue there are far more battle scenes in DS9 than in TNG or TOS. How many times does the Enterprise in TNG even have a ship-to-ship battle with anything but an alien of the week? I can only think of a few instances off the top of my head - the Borg episodes... er... They never really got round to fighting, they tended to come up with other solutions (which is sort of the point of Star Trek).

Voyager was also wildly inconsistent, particularly with regards to the supposed strength of the Borg, who were the only real recurring villains. I suppose they were generally pretty consistent with the Kazon - Voyager was far superior, but could be weakened if ganged up on.

So my point is that it would be strange if DS9 didn't end up with more of these inconsistencies than other shows, given they had an ongoing war with the same type of ships fighting each other over the years. Again dramatic necessity is the only thing that ultimately matters.
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