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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 2 2010, 07:33 PM   #1
TheLobes
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One Season too Many?

I dont want to make a blanket statement, but it seems to me that people on this forum generally agree that season seven of DS9 had major problems, and was the worst one. My question is: 'Do you think DS9 would have worked better as a six season show?'

I sort of feel like the loss of DS9 in 'Call to Arms' (in my opinion the best episode) at the end of season 5, and the susequent liberation in season 6 was when the whole Dominion War angle peaked. After that there was no way they could really outdo those battles, or the stakes involved, so we just got more of the same, or pointlessly destroying the Defiant only to get a new one the next week. After they recaptured DS9 the war sort of fading into the background for a while, so we got all this news about it, but we never really saw it, and all the tension was lost. What was once a great element of the show kind of faded into the background, and season seven relied to much on things like section 31 and the pah'thetics. The end of the Dominon war wasnt even allowed to be the climax of the series, it was the stupid demon Dukat thing instead.


I think if they'd had season six as the last one, they could have pushed on with Dominion War after the station was taken, and kept up the tension. You could have had it come down to Dukat and Sisko in battle, unifying the 'purpose of the sisko' arc, and the Dominion War arc into one much stronger story.

Any thoughts?
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Old December 2 2010, 07:48 PM   #2
Zeppster
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Re: One Season too Many?

A 7th season would have worked if they wrote it better. They had 4 really good seasons from about season 3-6 so it really isn't that hard. But they tries to throw things in there that probably weren't necessary like bringing Dax back and using a 60s bar setting when you already have quarks. I can understand having a 60s bar setting starting in season 2 of TNG because the first season of TNG didn't have a bar. But bringing one on a show that already has a hand out like it never made sense.

Then they had to try and make the Dominion beatable by the end of the season so the Dominion started to slowly become incompetent.

But the most offensive thing about season 7 was the entire religious part of it with large portions of the Bajorans becoming satanists and Dukat turning into Satan by the end.
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Old December 2 2010, 08:20 PM   #3
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Re: One Season too Many?

TheLobes wrote: View Post
I dont want to make a blanket statement, but it seems to me that people on this forum generally agree that season seven of DS9 had major problems, and was the worst one.
Having been a member of this forum for the last two years, that has never appeared to have been the consensus from what I've seen. The consensus seems to be that season 5 was the show's high-point and that both seasons 6 and 7 were a step down from that, but not hugely. Season 6 had a great opening arc and some other classic episodes later on, but once DS9 was recaptured the season floundered around like a... flounder. Meanwhile, season 7 floundered around like a flounder in the middle of the season, and the Dukat/Pah-Wraith storyline was weak, but the final arc was really strong otherwise.

I can unequivocally say that the consensus is that season 1 was the worst season. From there, the consensus seems to be that it improved each season until season 5, and the final two seasons saw a bit of a decline.

Some people don't like season 7 for various reasons, which is fair as everyone is entitled to their view, but I have never been convinced by the likes of Confused Matthew and their attempts to label season 7 as being objectively bad. Personally, I feel that it was a bit of an improvement on season 6, but that's just me.
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Old December 2 2010, 08:26 PM   #4
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Re: One Season too Many?

Zeppster wrote: View Post
But the most offensive thing about season 7 was the entire religious part of it with large portions of the Bajorans becoming satanists and Dukat turning into Satan by the end.
Exactly, they wouldnt have needed to do that with Dukat if they'd used six seasons. The stupid episode with him leading the cult came about because:

'the writers felt that since the six-episode arc and 'Waltz' they had allowed the character of Dukat to slip too much into the background. As Rene Echevarria explains, "He's a wonderful character and well-liked by the audience, but he'd become a very peripheral villain after the six-episode arc at the beginning of season six. We'd done two shows with him after that ('Waltz' and 'Tears of the Prophets'), but now he had no role to play." "Covenant" was created primarily so that Dukat could reclaim the role of Deep Space Nine's primary villain.' (Memory Alpha)

After that six season arc at the beginning of season six there was no logical place for Dukat to fit into the story, if they'd had that as the last season he could have stayed a tanglible part of the story. The whole craziness thing would have worked better to. Instead of having him just go nuts, the death of Ziyal could have simply destabalised him enough to blame Sisko for everything and begun throwing everything he had against Bajor and DS9 with no thought of strategy, this could have led to a much better final showdown between the two of them.
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Old December 2 2010, 08:28 PM   #5
DS9 Gal AZ
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Re: One Season too Many?

I thought season 7 had its problems (Dukat and the Pagh-wraiths, Sisko as a child of a Prophet), but it also had a lot of good stuff. I still liked it overall.
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Old December 2 2010, 08:38 PM   #6
TheLobes
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Re: One Season too Many?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I can unequivocally say that the consensus is that season 1 was the worst season. From there, the consensus seems to be that it improved each season until season 5, and the final two seasons saw a bit of a decline.
The thing is, I think a show has the right to be not quite as great in the first season. I actually liked the first season of DS9, but even if I didnt, I think you can objectively look at it as a trial and error process. In season one they tried a lot of different things, they made stories that were more like TNG (Babel, Dramatis Personae), they had episodes that had some of the silliness of TOS (If Wishes Were Horses, Move Along Home). Then they had the episodes which would later embody DS9 stables, with lots of social commentary, and much darker story aspects ('Duet', 'In the Hands of the Prophets', 'Progress'). They did this shakedown to make sure of what worked and what didnt, and the rest of the series grew from there. I think thats a lot different from seasons six and seven, where they just started shoving in new stuff which was either never used (new Jem'hadar, new kickass dominion ship) or stuff which was totally rubbish (the pah'thetics).

Looking at season 1, there are 11 shows I wouldnt mind watch rewatching, in season 7 there are 5.
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Old December 2 2010, 09:10 PM   #7
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Re: One Season too Many?

I think Dukat would have been better as turning into the good guy that that tries to fight back against the dominion after seeing what is happening with his people with them. That would have made his character more interesting instead of having some drunk that nobody really cared about trying to lead a rebellion of his people. Plus it would have lead to more interesting scenes with Kira and Dukat who already have a long history. The entire pah-wraiths thing should have just been erased after the first eps of the season. It was stupid.
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Old December 2 2010, 09:23 PM   #8
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Re: One Season too Many?

Zeppster wrote: View Post
I think Dukat would have been better as turning into the good guy that that tries to fight back against the dominion after seeing what is happening with his people with them. That would have made his character more interesting instead of having some drunk that nobody really cared about trying to lead a rebellion of his people. Plus it would have lead to more interesting scenes with Kira and Dukat who already have a long history. The entire pah-wraiths thing should have just been erased after the first eps of the season. It was stupid.

That would've made a lot of sense-you would've had Dukat first join the Dominion for the power it brought him, then realize that he'd helped turn Cardassia into a puppet state. Damar would've been an unnecessary character, his purpose filled by Dukat, plus they could've kept Dukat around to rebuild Cardassia after season 7. AND it would've spared him the character assassination he went through in late season 6-season 7.
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Old December 2 2010, 09:25 PM   #9
TheLobes
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Re: One Season too Many?

Zeppster wrote: View Post
I think Dukat would have been better as turning into the good guy that that tries to fight back against the dominion after seeing what is happening with his people with them. That would have made his character more interesting instead of having some drunk that nobody really cared about trying to lead a rebellion of his people.
Damar turned out to be a really well liked character, I dont think its fair to say that 'nobody really cared' about him. Im glad that Dukat stayed the bad guy, I dont think his character would have worked without that edge.
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Old December 2 2010, 09:36 PM   #10
Zeppster
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Re: One Season too Many?

TheLobes wrote: View Post
Zeppster wrote: View Post
I think Dukat would have been better as turning into the good guy that that tries to fight back against the dominion after seeing what is happening with his people with them. That would have made his character more interesting instead of having some drunk that nobody really cared about trying to lead a rebellion of his people.
Damar turned out to be a really well liked character, I dont think its fair to say that 'nobody really cared' about him. Im glad that Dukat stayed the bad guy, I dont think his character would have worked without that edge.
For the first 6 seasons you can see most of his motives as a bad guy. The problem with Damar is he was pretty much a vacuum most of the time. Really the leader of the rebellion against the dominion was Kira.
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Old December 2 2010, 09:43 PM   #11
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Re: One Season too Many?

By this logic, Voyager was seven seasons too many?
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Old December 2 2010, 09:49 PM   #12
TheLobes
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Re: One Season too Many?

Solticequaze wrote: View Post
By this logic, Voyager was seven seasons too many?
How does that work?
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Old December 2 2010, 09:50 PM   #13
Pemmer Harge
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Re: One Season too Many?

TheLobes wrote: View Post
I sort of feel like the loss of DS9 in 'Call to Arms' (in my opinion the best episode) at the end of season 5, and the susequent liberation in season 6 was when the whole Dominion War angle peaked. After that there was no way they could really outdo those battles, or the stakes involved, so we just got more of the same, or pointlessly destroying the Defiant only to get a new one the next week.
I do largely agree with this: after Sacrifice of Angels the stakes never felt nearly as high and the Dominion War couldn't be as intense spread over two seasons as it was in a six (or maybe seven) episode arc.

However, Deep Space Nine wasn't only about the Dominion War and I don't agree that Season 7 was the weakest. In fact, I found it a step up from the previous year. Season 6 starts brilliantly, but after Sacrifice of Angels it lost momentum in a big way. I'm fine with standalone episodes, but Season 6 had too many episodes that felt like fluff. It was still good to watch, but the season somehow lacked the superb balance of Seasons 3-5.

I found Season 7 more enjoyable. There were more questionable storylines than in Season 6 (Pah Wraiths, Julian-Ezri-Worf), but there were also more episodes that I really liked - even before the closing arc there are some really strong stories (Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols, Treachery, Faith and the Great River, The Siege of AR-558, It's Only a Paper Moon, Chimera, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges) which, taken together, I find better than the material in Season 6 that wasn't part of the occupation arc. It's totally subjective, but during Season 7 I felt more excited about DS9 than I had since Sacrifice of Angels.

Coincidentally, I feel almost exactly the same about the last two seasons of Battlestar Galactica.
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Old December 2 2010, 09:52 PM   #14
Satyrquaze
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Re: One Season too Many?

TheLobes wrote: View Post
Solticequaze wrote: View Post
By this logic, Voyager was seven seasons too many?
How does that work?
It shouldn't have been made. But I just say that because I'm not a fan.
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Old December 2 2010, 10:08 PM   #15
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Re: One Season too Many?

Pemmer Harge wrote: View Post

I do largely agree with this: after Sacrifice of Angels the stakes never felt nearly as high and the Dominion War couldn't be as intense spread over two seasons as it was in a six (or maybe seven) episode arc.
To be fair, they did manage to maintain a sense of inevitable dread through a good chunk of S6, which is why In The Pale Moonlight is such a standout. It wouldn't have been nearly as effective an episode if you didn't truly believe Sisko felt the Feds were desperate.
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