TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[kkozoriz1]

It currently feels like the DS9 character drew slips of paper out of a fishbowl to determine where they were and what their situation was. It feels totally random and unconnected to the previous DS9-R books.

[David R. George III]

kaysea wrote:

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...good work on the book. I had fun guessing who was actually doing the plotting.

Thanks for the kind words. Glad to hear you enjoyed the novel.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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My take?

While an extended discussion of the internal divisions of Romulan civilization, manifested by an interstate cold war, would have been fun, there probably would have been a RSE-IRS conflict sooner or later that could easily lead to a Typhon-vs-Khitomer war. I've had enough massive galactic armed conflicts for now, thanks.

Personally, I tend to agree with this perspective. I appreciated the Dominion War on Deep Space Nine, and I loved Dave Mack's fantastic Destiny trilogy, but I can only take so much mayhem and destruction. Interestingly, I think that part of the problem for writers--and I count myself among their number--is that the books have become so grand in scope and so connected one to another, that it is difficult to conceive story lines that fit into such a framework without resorting to at least the threat of war.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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The Tzenkethi engineering Romulan civilization's reunification on a pragmatic praetor not inclined towards showy attempts at galactic conquest is interesting. First, the Tzenkethi are doing it; great species/civilization! Second, the shift of Romulus towards a more peaceful but also more engaged mindset opens up all kinds of interesting possibilities for interaction. We've had an introverted but aggressive Romulan civilization since forever. What would a less aggressive and more open Romulan civilization look like?

First, I'm glad you like the Tzenkethi. I enjoyed writing them.

Second, it seems as though you and I are on the same page here. Few people truly want war, and although the Romulans had their share of individuals bent on attacking the Federation, I believe that most would prefer peace. I wanted to see what reasonable Romulan leadership would look like, and how that would impact the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Also, the Tzenkethi may be master manipulators, but they are also performing their machinations in order to keep what they consider to be an imperialistic Federation at bay.

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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About Sisko (and, without exception, all the other DS9 characters presented in the Typhon Pact books that had more than 2-3 lines) - their characterisation has been unsatisfactory; too abrupt, too rushed.

Too rushed? Okay, but I don't see that. Sisko's story line occurs six years after the impetus for this portion of his arc.

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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A while ago, on these forums it was discussed whether the 5 year jump for the DS9 Relaunch was a good ideea or not.
For me, the books so far settled the matter:
-the characters' development suffered, it's not organic, but eclectic, the characters seem all over the place; also, they have become too spread out;
-plot threads that were anticipated/developed extensively were dropped - ex, the Ascendants; it's obvious it was decided to abandon previously prepared plot-lines;
-at this point, if the DS9 Relaunch is to continue, it will have little in common - beyond the setting - with what came before.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of what you write here, but I honestly did the best I could with what I was given. Make no mistake: I love the continuing Deep Space Nine saga, as well as its characters, and I strive to make strong contributions when I have an opportunity to do so.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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Between that [their home planet is due to be pulverised in a few years] and the Empire's integration with the Typhon Pact, it looks like the Romulans are going to be pushed into much greater interactions with the surrounding civilizations at a person-to-person level. This could be interesting: will viinerine be as common as raktajino?

I believe that it can and will be interesting to follow developments of the Typhon Pact nations in general, and of the Romulans in particular.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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I agree in certain respects--the five-year gap is a bit much--but what led to the stagnation of the relaunch in the first place?

It's actually a four-year gap. While I would hesitate to say that the ongoing Deep Space Nine story has stagnated, I can say that quite a number of circumstances have contributed to its current state. In some regards, it doesn't really matter what happened, though; what matters is what will happen going forward. I have a feeling that there may be at least a couple of more DSN books before it's all said and done.

flemm wrote:

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It was eventually decided to bring the DS9-R up to speed with the rest of the post-Destiny narrative. That is what is happening in the Typhon Pact titles, albeit in a rather uninspired manner imo.

Yeah, kinda. I mean, Rough Beasts of Empire is not, and was never designed to be, a Deep Space Nine novel. Clearly, it is in part a Ben Sisko story. Uninspiring? Sorry to hear you feel that way, though I certainly felt inspired while writing.

flemm wrote:

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One the one hand, yeah, some of these choices, especially the ones in RBoE, don't feel very promising as far as future DS9 stories are concerned.

I'm uncertain just what you mean here. Are you talking about the four-year gap between The Soul Key and Rough Beasts, or about specific character developments in my novel? If the latter, then I can tell you unequivocally that my choices in RBoE do not spell doom for the ongoing DSN saga.

flemm wrote:

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On the other hand, the pieces are still there on the table for a future writer to pick up and put back together. It's a bit tricky because the DS9 crew can't be easily plugged into a standard Trek narrative the way the crews of TNG, Voyager, Titan and others can. So, we'll see.

Really, this has always been the case, ever since the final episode of the television series. After "What You Leave Behind," Ben Sisko was no longer on the station, or even on Bajor, but off in the Celestial Temple with the Prophets; Miles O'Brien and his family returned to Earth; Worf departed DS9 to accept the Federation ambassadorship to Qo'noS; Odo left to join the Dominion; Garak stayed on Cardassia; Winn, Dukat, and the (supposedly) last Weyoun perished. When the Deep Space Nine saga continued in the books, its characters were scattered all over the galaxy, if they were even still alive. In that regard, the continuing narrative has always posed challenges not entirely present in the other Trek literary lines.

I think the real issue here is that new installments of the ongoing DSN tale were published relatively regularly for a few years, and now that's no longer the case. Also, I know that some readers anticipated both Zero Sum Game and Rough Beasts of Empire as Deep Space Nine novels, but neither were developed for that to be the case.

As well, because of the four-year jump ahead in the narrative, it might appear that some of the plot threads--the exodus of the Founders, the approach of the zealous Ascendants--have been dropped without satisfactory resolution. Now, I'm not in charge of these things, so I can't promise anything, but I do firmly believe that there will be more DSN books, and that at least some of the dangling plot threads could get resolved.

flemm wrote:

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The DS9-R as an on-going story of its own is dead, but I do think that at some point an author will come up with a compelling story for these characters, at which time hopefully we will get a couple of DS9 novels in relatively quick succession.

Perhaps as you define it, but I genuinely do not think that the ongoing DSN story is dead.

starri wrote:

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David...even though I didn't love the book, I think you...and all our other wonderful authors deserve a lot of credit for being so great about answering criticism. And even when I don't love every plot twist and all of that, I certainly know how much you all love ST, and how glad I am that we've got a whole stable of authors who are willing to undertake all this as a labor of love.

I figured it was the least I could say after my Negative Nancy comments

Thanks, but you shouldn't feel badly at all for not liking a book. This is all subjective. For what it's worth, I knew that parts of my novel would be a hard sell. I was good with that; I like a challenge. I certainly want every reader to love my work, but I also understand that such a desire is unrealistic in the extreme. Thanks, though, for recognizing that I do love Star Trek, and that I absolutely strive hard to write good novels that are worthy of the line.

Whew. More later.

[flemm]

David R. George III wrote:

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Really, this has always been the case, ever since the final episode of the television series.

Agreed, certainly, on this point. The DS9 novels have always required a different approach. It's also true that we are probably subjecting the DS9 aspect of RBoE to a disproportionate amount of scrutiny given that the focus is largely on the Spock and Romulan Empire plot thread. There was a certain amount of editorial box-checking going on here (now we know where most, if not all of the DS9 characters are in the current timeline) and that's fine. Obviously, it was a necessary part of bringing the DS9-R up to speed with everything else.

That being said, the Sisko storyline strikes me as very poorly conceived for reasons I described above. It could probably be salvaged in a subsequent novel, and I certainly hope it will be.

[rfmcdpei]

flemm wrote:

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In RBoE it feels like Sisko is looking for any excuse to abandon his family while convincing himself that he is doing it for unselfish reasons. The reasons given are extremely flimsy and do not stand up to much scrutiny, as even Sisko seems to recognize by his refusal to openly discuss them with Kassidy.

The end strikes me as especially misguided from this point of view in that it seems to show a relieved Sisko finally free of his responsibilities after having filed for divorce from long distance and now he's ready to relax and have a drink with his shipmates. Yikes.

I think it does bear some scrutiny, though not much.

Neglectful parenting has been depicted before. Remember when Worf found out that his son went and joined the Klingon military, and that only because of a chance encounter? Martok was right to be unimpressed.

[flemm]

rfmcdpei wrote:

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Neglectful parenting has been depicted before.

It's true that the Sisko portion of RBoE reads like a story about a neglectful parent or "deadbeat dad" trying to shirk his responsibilities more than anything else. From that point of view, the prophecy is just an excuse, and I agree that this interpretation is the most plausible based solely on the narrative of RBoE.

What I am saying is that the excuse provided by the prophecy doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, so the idea (asserted above by the author) that RBoE is a story about Sisko making a selfless decision to save his wife and children is likewise hard to sustain.

Beyond that, portraying Sisko as a neglectful parent seems to fly in the face of everything we know about the character. I understand this was probably unintentional on the part of the author, but that, imho, is the story we have in front of us for the moment.

[rfmcdpei]

kkozoriz1 wrote:

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One thing that really bothers me about Sisko's choices is that the original plan was for Sisko to die at the end of DS9. Avery Brooks convinced the writers to put in the promise to return to Kassidy because he didn't want to see another broken African-American family. Sisko made the promise because he knew he wouldn't leave her. He would have found a way around the prophesy. Words can always be interpreted in different ways. This makes Sisko look like a quitter, taking the easy way out and leaving rather than fighting for his family and finding a way to stay with them.

I think this evaluation is a bit unfair to Sisko. He might try to find a way around the prophecy, but would he want to risk the lives of his wife and child? He believed what he said.

There's also the issue of his pervasive depression clouding his judgment. Believe me, from my personal experience the decisions that one makes when one's seriously depressed make sense at the time, but afterwards ... ?

There might be an analogy between Sisko's behaviour in Rough Beasts of Empire and Picard's behaviour in The Buried Age after he finds out that Ariel has betrayed him (more complicated than that, I know) and his hope for a family life was ill-founded. Picard's lack of amiability after those events, lasting into the series, matches Sisko's early in his captaincy after he finds himself forced to leave almost everyone who mattered in his prior life (his perception).

[rfmcdpei]

flemm wrote:

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What I am saying that the excuse provided by the prophecy doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, so the idea (asserted above by the auther) that RBoE is a story about Sisko making a selfless decision to save his wife and children is likewise hard to sustain.

Beyond that, portraying Sisko as a deadbeat dad seems to fly in the face of everything we know about the character. I understand this was probably unintentional on the part of the author, but that is the story we have in front of us for the moment.

I didn't get "deadbeat dad" at all, at least inasmuch as the term implies a father who doesn't care about his responsibilities. The prophecy does work for me.

There's also his mental state. Seriously, why didn't he get treatment for depression before now? I've a feeling that when he gets better--if, maybe--he'll be very unhappy with himself.

[flemm]

rfmcdpei wrote:

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I've a feeling that when he gets better--if, maybe--he'll be very unhappy with himself.

Yeah, even though the end of Sisko's portion of RBoE seems to suggest otherwise. However, that is what I mean when I say this story could be salvaged in a later novel. That's also what I was referring to earlier on in the thread when I said that, given the way prophecies normally function, the Sisko portion of this novel feels more like the set-up for a larger narrative (in which Sisko would realize his mistake and the glaring folly of abandoning his family in this manner).

The whole reasoning that Sisko provides for his actions in RBoE is dubious (at best) because the prophets said nothing about an escape clause that would allow the prophecy to be averted in any event. There's nothing about "if you marry her and then spend some of your life with her and then divorce her in time, then all will be well." To perceive this as the only logical interpretation, one would have to be trying very hard to come up with a reason to abandon one's family.

The other possibility, I guess, as you say, is that Sisko is merely caught up in a very severe form of irrational depression and is not thinking straight. However, the culmination of the story seems to suggest otherwise and supports the neglectful parent/bad husband/mid-life crisis interpretation.

[kkozoriz1]

rfmcdpei wrote:

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I think this evaluation is a bit unfair to Sisko. He might try to find a way around the prophecy, but would he want to risk the lives of his wife and child? He believed what he said.

There's also the issue of his pervasive depression clouding his judgment. Believe me, from my personal experience the decisions that one makes when one's seriously depressed make sense at the time, but afterwards ... ?

There might be an analogy between Sisko's behaviour in Rough Beasts of Empire and Picard's behaviour in The Buried Age after he finds out that Ariel has betrayed him (more complicated than that, I know) and his hope for a family life was ill-founded. Picard's lack of amiability after those events, lasting into the series, matches Sisko's early in his captaincy after he finds himself forced to leave almost everyone who mattered in his prior life (his perception).

Part of the problem is we haven't seen what brings him to this point. We know where we saw him five years ago and we're briefly told why he is where he is and it just doesn't FEEL right. It feels random and arbitrary. Much like most of what we've found out about the other members of DS9. The words that keep running through my head are "Col. Mustard - In the library - With the candlestick". Draw a who, where and why card and work them into a Typhon Pact novel. I know that it isn't random (at least I hope it isn't) but it feels that way.

[flemm]

In passing, what is the etiquette for the spoiler tags now that the book is in stores? Do we get to stop using them at some point? Once they proliferate to this extent it starts to get a bit distracting

[kkozoriz1]

DRGIII has requested spoiler tags be used, at least for a while. The book may be in stores but it's still new.

[flemm]

kkozoriz1 wrote:

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DRGIII has requested spoiler tags be used, at least for a while. The book may be in stores but it's still new.

Thanks, fair enough.

[David R. George III]

flemm wrote:

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As far as the DS9 threads are concerned, part of the problem is that these characters have been stuck in "set-up mode" for a long time now, really since Unity.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I disagree with this assessment--and I do so not as a writer of the continuing Deep Space Nine saga, but as a reader of same. Since Unity, Shar and Prynn became involved; Shar returned to Andor; revelations were loosed on Trill; a town was destroyed on Bajor, apparently by Kira; the Founders scattered throughout space and abandoned the Dominion; Taran'atar attempted to kill Kira and Ro, then absconded from DS9; Prynn was abducted, and her father then chased after her...and those are only a few details I thought of off the top of my head. The thing is, in an ongoing, multi-volume story, some plots are paid off and others seeded for future tales; nothing is ever completely finished.

flemm wrote:

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There were a bunch of novels that contained basically set-up material for the Ascendant Arc, which then never actually happened, and now the Typhon Pact contains a few elements of what is basically set-up material for whatever comes next. Overall, I get the feeling that no one really has any idea how the original relaunch was supposed to unfold, nor any idea what (if anything) is on the horizon for these characters, so the constant refrain that "something is about to happen" and "the sorrow is looming" and so on starts to be irritating rather than exciting.

Yes, several works sowed the basis for the introduction of, and a major story about, the Ascendants, but that is not to say that those works had no value other than as "setup material." Nor is it the case that the details regarding the Deep Space Nine characters within the Typhon Pact novels are strictly for the purposes of initiating plots to be concluded later. Zero Sum Game tells a complete story about Bashir, and Rough Beasts of Empire tells a complete story about Sisko. I'm not suggesting that you should like those tales, but they each have a beginning, middle, and end. That is not to say that those works tell the life stories of those characters, but they do tell fully realized stories from certain periods in their lives.

As for your gut feeling that "no one really has any idea how the original relaunch was supposed to unfold, nor any idea what (if anything) is on the horizon for these characters," I can tell you that your sense is factually incorrect.

flemm wrote:

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The Sisko story in RBoE boils down to a drawn out revelation that Sisko is leaving his wife and family due to an extremely dubious interpretation of the prophecy regarding his life with Kassidy.

As you might expect, I vehemently disagree with your description of Sisko's "interpretation" as "extremely dubious." Actually, for me, a close viewing of the final season of Deep Space Nine itself shows Sisko's view as not only reasonable, but inevitable.

flemm wrote:

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Now, looking here in my handbook entitled "Prophecy 101: The Basics," I see that attempting to circumvent a prophecy is commonly the best way of fulfilling that very same prophecy and, given Sisko's extreme depression throughout most of this novel, that seems to indeed be happening.

What you describe are not facts, but they are indeed the tropes of many stories involving prophecy. I make no apologies for not bowing to cliché. Of more importance, this is not that type of story. The Prophets told Sisko outright that if he spent his life with Kasidy, he would know nothing but sorrow. Knowing that the Prophets, because of the nonlinear nature of their lives, are not making a prediction, but are telling him something factual, he initially decides not to marry Kasidy. In the end, he changes his mind and the two wed.

So what about the sorrow? Were the Prophets wrong? Were they attempting to trick Sisko for some reason? That thread from the television series never got resolved. I chose to address it.

In my novel, Sisko makes no snap decisions. He has two close friends die tragically in a fire. His daughter is kidnapped and nearly killed. A close friend is injured and becomes brain dead. His father dies. And through all of that, the Prophets fail to commune with him. He feels sad, he feels abandoned, and it eventually dawns him that this is the sorrow of which the Prophets spoke. He does not then take the actions he does to avoid his own sorrow; he does so because he realizes that his greatest sorrow would be the deaths of his wife, daughter, and son. Knowing the Prophets, knowing how he acted against their warning, and feeling the depths of his own sorrows from the terrible losses he has suffered, he comes to believe he must do what he does in order to save the people he loves. You might not like the story line, you might hate it, you might think it incompetently plotted and poorly written, but I certainly made sure that it hung together.

flemm wrote:

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All of this might be mildly interesting if this were part 1 of the story, but actually that's the whole thing, i.e. there's no story at all really, since a decision like this is not interesting on its own, but only in light of how the character's interpretation/misinterpretation affects his life and those around him. Sending Oedipus away because it is foretold that he will kill his father and marry his mother is not interesting in itself, that's the set-up for what happens later. Sisko's decision has to have some unforeseen consequences or come back to bite him in some way for it to be interesting and feel complete from a dramatic point of view. Or, alternately, perhaps we are to believe that Sisko made the right choice and averted the "great sorrow" entirely, thereby saving Kassidy and/or his daughter. That's waaaaaayyyyyy too easy, and doesn't seem likely, but again, all of this is only interesting as a set-up, not as a complete narrative.

It seems clear that you did not find Sisko's tale interesting. It is in fact the "B" story in the novel, but it does tell the story of Sisko's decision, and it does show the immediate consequences of that decision. He shuts down emotionally, he returns to Starfleet, he alienates his new crew, he recalls some difficult times in the last Federation-Tzenkethi War, and he begins a new chapter in his life. Again, I'm not saying you should like it (and obviously you don't), but there is a story there.

flemm wrote:

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In reality, the story is in suspended animation until some future author decides to pick it up again. However, given that these characters only show up once every couple of years, something has to actually happen for the reader to feel in the least bit satisfied. An introduction to the foreshadowing to the preface to the looming disaster to the continuing saga on the horizon vibe simply does not work given the current publishing schedule.

Fortunately for me, at least some readers do appear to be satisfied, and more than just a bit. I'm sorry that you are not among them, but them's the breaks (for both of us). And doesn't the end of every segment of an ongoing story leave that ongoing story in suspended animation?

flemm wrote:

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In passing, Kira's appearance contains a humorous moment where the narrative pauses to basically state that Kira is a great character who has had a great journey and her journey is emblematic of Bajor's journey in many respects. Err, yes, all of that is true, but ideally a character like Kira would appear in a novel like this to continue the journey, rather than summarize what has come before in very general terms.

Except that this was never going to be a Deep Space Nine novel. I did not have the option to make it so. And it seemed to me that saying nothing about the DSN characters, revealing nothing of whatever changes must have taken place in their lives in the previous, unexplored four years, would have been a terrible choice. I liked what I did.

flemm wrote:

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In fairness, she does perform a meaningful function in drawing out a confession of Sisko's motives, but the bit about "what a great journey it's been to this point" should have been edited out as it only serves to underscore the reality that Kira is making a token appearance, nothing more, in the wake of that Ascendant thing that sort of happened (but not really).

Kira's appearance is not a token appearance. It is a decidedly brief appearance, but not a token one. And regarding the Ascendants arc that had been developing, it seemed to me absurd to think that it had not gotten resolved in the intervening four years between The Soul Key and the Typhon Pact novels. I chose to address it, but to do so in a manner that would not attempt to fully explain what had happened, and thereby give the arc short shrift.

toughlittleship wrote:

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Having finished the novel, I'm not sure I like how the DS9 characters are scattered across several locations. Sure, we still have Bashir, Ro, Nog, Quark and Prynn aboard DS9 and I suppose Kira's being on Bajor doesn't rule out her appearing, but it seems odd to take Sisko out of Bajor.

As I pointed out in another post, this has been the case since the final episode of the television series. After "What You Leave Behind," Ben Sisko was no longer on the station, or even on Bajor, but off in the Celestial Temple with the Prophets; Miles O'Brien and his family returned to Earth; Worf departed DS9 to accept the Federation ambassadorship to Qo'noS; Odo left to join the Dominion; Garak stayed on Cardassia; Winn, Dukat, and the (supposedly) last Weyoun perished. When the Deep Space Nine saga continued in the books, its characters were scattered all over the galaxy, if they were even still alive.

crotig wrote:

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I too found the Sisko storyline a little out of kilter with the character I know. Not a criticism as such just not what I had expected.

My feeling is that Sisko has been dealt several crushing blows, which knocked him off-kilter. And I also like to do the unexpected.

crotig wrote:

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The refrences to events occuring during the DS9 gap were a little frustrating especially with the cameo of a certain individual when Sisko was talking to Kira. This is a story that needs to be told after all the build up in the previous books. Also I too would like to know what became of Odo, Lars, and the Dominion.

Here's my take on it. I essentially had three choices regarding the Ascendants. I could have said nothing about them. I could have dropped hints about what happened with them. Or I could have given a quick wrap-up of the denouement of that arc. I felt that saying nothing would be unacceptable, as it would leave readers of the continuing DSN saga hanging precisely where they have been. I also felt that providing a mere overview of the events that transpired would have shortchanged readers, in that a larger story involving the Ascendants had effectively been promised. I therefore settled on the other choice, letting readers know that some resolution with the Ascendants story line had likely occurred between The Soul Key and Rough Beasts of Empire, but not offering a mere summary of those events.

Believe me, I would love to write a conclusion to the Ascendants story line, and to follow up on the Founders and the Dominion. So far, neither I nor any other writers have been afforded that opportunity.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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Tal'Aura did a great job recovering from an unenviable position, restoring the Senate to justify her rule and getting the Hundred backing her, allowing the Reunification movement to go public to pressure Donatra into reunification on the RSE's terms, and making use of the Tal Shi'ar. I didn't like her, but she didn't do badly.

I imagine some readers will like her, but most probably won't. What was more important to me was to evoke something within her that made her more than a cartoon villain.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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Donatra's simply a tragic figure. She really did mean well, whether we're talking about her support for Shinzon's coup or her attempts to counter Tal'Aura with the Imperial Romulan State or her near-alliance with the Federation. Her problem, I think, was that she wasn't consistent enough. That, and the Typhon Pact eviscerated her strategy for reunification and Romulan reform on her own terms.

Well put.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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Might I say that I'm so happy to see Gell Kamenor not only back, but as Praetor? I quite liked her character in Serpent Among the Shadows--thanks for bringing her back, David!--and no matter whether or not she was manipulated into her position by the Tzenkethi she will be a good Praetor.

I felt that I needed an eminently reasonable leader for the Romulan Empire, and as I cast about for one, Kamemor struck me as a good choice. I'm glad both that you remembered her and that you enjoyed seeing her again.

rfmcdpei wrote:

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As for the minor characters, Tomalak did a good job as Tal'Aura's second, Rehaek's plans were cunning, and, well, I suppose it's nice to have Sela back.

It's all fun and games in Romulan-ville!

DS9forever wrote:

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I really liked the novel and it is the best I've read in quite some time.

I'm delighted to hear that you enjoyed the novel so much. Thanks for saying so.

kkozoriz1 wrote:

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One thing that really bothers me about Sisko's choices is that the original plan was for Sisko to die at the end of DS9. Avery Brooks convinced the writers to put in the promise to return to Kassidy because he didn't want to see another broken African-American family. Sisko made the promise because he knew he wouldn't leave her. He would have found a way around the prophesy. Words can always be interpreted in different ways. This makes Sisko look like a quitter, taking the easy way out and leaving rather than fighting for his family and finding a way to stay with them.

I am aware of Avery Brooks's feelings about Sisko dying at the end of the television series, and his desire for a black male character on a prime-time American show not to leave his wife and child, even by death. When I first heard about this, I was of two minds about it. At first blush, I thought it ridiculous, but upon closer consideration, I believe I came to understand and sympathize with his point of view.

That being the case, I will tell you that when I conceived the Sisko story for Rough Beasts of Empire, it did give me pause. In the end, I decided to go through with it because I thought it was an interesting story, and because I believed that the message Star Trek carries with it mitigates any notion that this is happening because Sisko is a black man.

Also, I would argue that Sisko is not quitting, that he is not taking the easy way out, but that he is doing the most difficult thing he has ever done: acting contrary to his deepest emotions, but doing so in order to save the lives of the people he loves. Anyway, that's my take on it.

If you guys can slow down a bit, maybe I can eventually catch up to the rest of the thread.

[JoeZhang]

The story simply doesn't play like that, as someone else points out, we are presented with the unfortunate juxtaposition of

Sisko asking for a divorce then instantly inviting his first officer for a drink. The book beats us over the head with the idea that Sisko must walk alone over and over again, OK we get it, that's why he's cutting himself off. However by putting those two actions together it seems makes it appear like an excuse, like Sisko is doing a runner on his family.

[Truth]

His logic seem to be im doing it for my family, they will be better off with out me..Hmmm does,nt every dead beat dad think that way, as a means to feel like what they did was the right thing.. I,m sorry i know you wanted to tell a engaging story , and for the most part you did..but lets be honest i can never see any of treks major captains making this choice. On this i think many of the fans have spoken a while they have high praise for the spock side.. they are gravely disappointed in how sisko was handled.. .