TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[flemm]

Clem1029 wrote:

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Anywho, enough of my rambling - RBoE is a good read in a vacuum, a frustrating read for the ongoing story threads, but mostly comes off as repositioning and setup for whatever comes "next."

As far as the DS9 threads are concerned, part of the problem is that these characters have been stuck in "set-up mode" for a long time now, really since Unity.

There were a bunch of novels that contained basically set-up material for the Ascendant Arc, which then never actually happened, and now the Typhon Pact contains a few elements of what is basically set-up material for whatever comes next. Overall, I get the feeling that no one really has any idea how the original relaunch was supposed to unfold, nor any idea what (if anything) is on the horizon for these characters, so the constant refrain that "something is about to happen" and "the sorrow is looming" and so on starts to be irritating rather than exciting.

The next time someone tells a story involving these characters, something has to actually happen (by which I mean a complete action from a dramatic standpoint). Enough with the set-up and foreboding already.

The Sisko story in RBoE boils down to a drawn out revelation that Sisko is leaving his wife and family due to an extremely dubious interpretation of the prophecy regarding his life with Kassidy. Now, looking here in my handbook entitled "Prophecy 101: The Basics," I see that attempting to circumvent a prophecy is commonly the best way of fulfilling that very same prophecy and, given Sisko's extreme depression throughout most of this novel, that seems to indeed be happening. But maybe due to his time in the Celestial Temple Benny has some kind of special insight into how things will unfold in the long run? Some nebulous references suggest this might be so.

All of this might be mildly interesting if this were part 1 of the story, but actually that's the whole thing, i.e. there's no story at all really, since a decision like this is not interesting on its own, but only in light of how the character's interpretation/misinterpretation affects his life and those around him. Sending Oedipus away because it is foretold that he will kill his father and marry his mother is not interesting in itself, that's the set-up for what happens later. Sisko's decision has to have some unforeseen consequences or come back to bite him in some way for it to be interesting and feel complete from a dramatic point of view. Or, alternately, perhaps we are to believe that Sisko made the right choice and averted the "great sorrow" entirely, thereby saving Kassidy and/or his daughter. That's waaaaaayyyyyy too easy, and doesn't seem likely, but again, all of this is only interesting as a set-up, not as a complete narrative.

In reality, the story is in suspended animation until some future author decides to pick it up again. However, given that these characters only show up once every couple of years, something has to actually happen for the reader to feel in the least bit satisfied. An introduction to the foreshadowing to the preface to the looming disaster to the continuing saga on the horizon vibe simply does not work given the current publishing schedule.

In passing, Kira's appearance contains a humorous moment where the narrative pauses to basically state that Kira is a great character who has had a great journey and her journey is emblematic of Bajor's journey in many respects. Err, yes, all of that is true, but ideally a character like Kira would appear in a novel like this to continue the journey, rather than summarize what has come before in very general terms.

In fairness, she does perform a meaningful function in drawing out a confession of Sisko's motives, but the bit about "what a great journey it's been to this point" should have been edited out as it only serves to underscore the reality that Kira is making a token appearance, nothing more, in the wake of that Ascendant thing that sort of happened (but not really).

[ProtoAvatar]

rfmcdpei wrote:

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Quite. Between that and the Empire's integration with the Typhon Pact, it looks like the Romulans are going to be pushed into much greater interactions with the surrounding civilizations at a person-to-person level. This could be interesting: will viinerine be as common as raktajino?

rfmcdpei, considering your soft-spot for the romulans and especially for the 'rihannsu' book series detailinng their culture, I think you'll be pleased to find out that RBoE integrates some information from said book series into the main continuity such as: the romulans calling themselves rihannsu; the romulan naming fetish.

I agree in certain respects--the five-year gap is a bit much--but what led to the stagnation of the relaunch in the first place?

Changes concerning authors/editors. In what way should this impact my point?

[rfmcdpei]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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rfmcdpei, considering your soft-spot for the romulans and especially for the 'rihannsu' book series detailinng their culture, I think you'll be pleased to find out that RBoE integrates some information from said book series into the main continuity such as: the romulans calling themselves rihannsu; the romulan naming fetish.

Indeed, the integration intensifies ...

By the way, is that you over at Centauri Dreams?

I agree in certain respects--the five-year gap is a bit much--but what led to the stagnation of the relaunch in the first place?

Changes concerning authors/editors. In what way should this impact my point?[/QUOTE]

It doesn't impact it, I suppose, I'm just unfamiliar with the backstory. It's a shame: the Ascendants really do need to be developed. And what has happened to the Dominion?

[Ronald Held]

Finished it. Sisko's part just was not that interesting, although it may lead to that in future stories. Spock's was just all right. Given what we know about what happen to the Eisn system in several years, will all future reunification stories not really matter that much?

[toughlittleship]

Having finished the novel, I'm not sure I like how the DS9 characters are scattered across several locations. Sure, we still have Bashir, Ro, Nog, Quark and Prynn aboard DS9 and I suppose Kira's being on Bajor doesn't rule out her appearing, but it seems odd to take Sisko out of Bajor.

[crotig]

I too found the Sisko storyline a little out of kilter with the character I know. Not a criticism as such just not what I had expected. The refrences to events occuring during the DS9 gap were a little frustrating especially with the cameo of a certain individual when Sisko was talking to Kira. This is a story that needs to be told after all the build up in the previous books. Also I too would like to know what became of Odo, Lars, and the Dominion.

Write faster dammit!! LOL.

[rfmcdpei]

Ronald Held wrote:

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Spock's was just all right. Given what we know about what happen to the Eisn system in several years, will all future reunification stories not really matter that much?

Why would this be the case? Romulans don't live only on Romulus, and even with the destruction of their empire's core there are going to be very large numbers of Romulans living elsewhere in the Star Empire who are going to be influenced by the reunification movement, and by the other changes introduced by the new Romulan government. Determined efforts at peacefulness--domestically and abroad--and potential detente with the Federation would change things greatly. Maybe some post-Hobus Romulan might, if not reunify with Vulcan, align with the Federation.

Tal'Aura did a great job recovering from an unenviable position, restoring the Senate to justify her rule and getting the Hundred backing her, allowing the Reunification movement to go public to pressure Donatra into reunification on the RSE's terms, and making use of the Tal Shi'ar. I didn't like her, but she didn't do badly.

Donatra's simply a tragic figure. She really did mean well, whether we're talking about her support for Shinzon's coup or her attempts to counter Tal'Aura with the Imperial Romulan State or her near-alliance with the Federation. Her problem, I think, was that she wasn't consistent enough. That, and the Typhon Pact eviscerated her strategy for reunification and Romulan reform on her own terms.

Might I say that I'm so happy to see Gell Kamenor not only back, but as Praetor? I quite liked her character in Serpent Among the Shadows--thanks for bringing her back, David!--and no matter whether or not she was manipulated into her position by the Tzenkethi she will be a good Praetor.

As for the minor characters, Tomalak did a good job as Tal'Aura's second, Rehaek's plans were cunning, and, well, I suppose it's nice to have Sela back.

[C.E. Evans]

crotig wrote:

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I too found the Sisko storyline a little out of kilter with the character I know. Not a criticism as such just not what I had expected.

Same here. It seemed very "un-Sisko" like to me and reverted the character into something of a total wuss in one major area. I kinda doubt Avery Brooks would have agreed to do it if it had been a filmed story unless he liked where it was eventually going...

[DS9forever]

I really liked the novel and it is the best I've read in quite some time. I do have reservations of where DS9 goes from here though. We haven't had any announcements of anything DS9 related to be published in the future, bar Nog's appearance in the upcoming Indistinguishable from Magic.

However, Pocket Books' Star Trek team have rarely let me down with regards to DS9, so I'm confident in the future of DS9 prose.

[David R. George III]

rfmcdpei wrote:

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The Sisko segment reminded me of Season 6 Buffy, actually.

It hurt to see Sisko and his--characters I care about--be so horribly depressed and self-destructive, but it made sense that they could and would do that, and the story of how this could happen was compelling.

Well, I've never seen a single moment of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (either the film or the television series), so I'll just have to take your word for it. As for your comments...

I wouldn't say I'm exactly pleased that it hurt for you to read Sisko's story, but I am gratified that I engaged you emotionally. While it seems pretty clear that Sisko would be depressed, I would argue that he is not being self-destructive. In fact, he is specifically seeking to avoid that which would hurt him the most. I'm glad that you understood the reasons behind his actions--some readers apparently haven't--and I am delighted that you found the resultant tale compelling. Thanks for the kind words.

kaysea wrote:

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I just finished reading it and I give it a 4.5/5. It was a good fucking read. It was nicely paced, entertaining and I kept on wanting to read more. I even had some HOLY SHIT! just like that huh? moments...which is a good thing.

I'm happy to hear how much you enjoyed the book.

kaysea wrote:

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The only problem I had with it was the whole Sisko thing. I never read anything post DS9 series specifically regarding him until now and I must say I'm not entirely digging the whole sullen moping thing he has been portraying throughout the novel. It just seems so unlike Captain Sisko. Anyways keep up the good work David R George III I will read more of your books.

Sisko's arc definitely takes a turn in Rough Beasts of Empire, although I wouldn't characterize it quite the way that you do. To my way of thinking, that turn will probably not be expected by most readers, but with a little reflection on what transpired in the television series, it seems inevitable.

kaysea wrote:

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Oh and the Tzenkethi have unrestricted "castes" for their peoples which is determined by genetics ... and they fly around in tear droped ships

Actually, the Tzenkethi not only don't have castes, but it annoys them when people think that they do (so you'd better keep your distance from any Tzenkethi wandering your neighborhood).

As for the teardrop-shaped ships, they are not my invention, but that of James Swallow. Those ships first appeared in his excellent Day of the Vipers.

Clem1029 wrote:

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I finished the book yesterday, and I've been stewing on my reaction since then. In a vacuum, it's definitely a good read, but it comes off as a bit...frustrating with some of it's contributions to many ongoing narratives.

A good read in a vacuum, huh? I guess I'll take that, but I assume I know what's going to come after the but.

Clem1029 wrote:

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All that said...isn't the Romulan storyline just a Nemesis reset?

Hmmm. I never considered that, undoubtedly because my goals for the story did not include resetting anything. Now that I think about it, though, I would argue that my Romulan storyline is not a reset, in that I purposefully left a reasonable, educated, well-intentioned person in power as praetor. The Romulan Empire, and by extension, the Typhon Pact, should not look like a cadre of mustache-twirling villains.

Clem1029 wrote:

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...it just seems to wipe the slate clean and make the future narratives strictly Typhon Pact related. Not that it's a bad thing, but the payoff isn't here in this book - it's going to come whenever we revisit Romulus next.

I disagree that the tale I tell is essentially setup. Of course, as part of an ongoing narrative, I do leave places for the story to go after my novel, but at the same time, I quite deliberately set out to tell my own story, one with a beginning, middle, and end. Perhaps the issue here is not that the story is merely a setup for something else, but that it simply didn't satisfy you.

Clem1029 wrote:

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The Tzenkethi parts were well developed without dominating the rest of the storyline. I loved the idea that there's going to be some internal manipulation by Typhon Pact members, and as muchas the Romulans might like to think they're the power brokers, setting the Tzenkethi up as pulling the strings in the background is a fun move with much future potential.

Good to hear that you liked the Tzenkethi. I wanted to add them to the novel in a meaningful way, but without detracting from the Romulan story (which is what I was asked to write). I know that some readers will likely be disappointed with my take on the oft-mentioned but heretofore-never-seen aliens, since I read so often where people wanted them to be feline in nature, or like lizards. I wanted to do something different with them, but not something so completely out there that they would not be relatable on a human level. I also wanted their mind-set to be alien.

Clem1029 wrote:

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Before I get going here, I should point out my own biases - I've been excited about the Typhon Pact books for 2 reasons - 1) the concept and post-Destiny cleanup seemed awesome and 2) we finally get some more DS9-related goodness (or what I hoped to be goodness). I'm a total unapologetic DS9R cheerleader.

For the record, I am a avid fan of the continuing Deep Space Nine saga. I say that not as a contributor, nor even as a writer, but as a reader. That said, Rough Beasts was never slated to be a DSN novel. You might not have seen this, but I posted that more than once on this forum.

Clem1029 wrote:

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The Sisko stuff is hugely frustrating. I can sort of see the argument that all this crap hitting the fan can destroy a man's soul causing him to take drastic actions. Unfortunately, we don't get to SEE the crap hit the fan over the previous 5 years. We don't get to see the tension with Kasidy develop organically. Instead, we're forced into a situation where probably the consummate family man in Trek history (with O'Brien being in that discussion as well) abandons his family because of...what? I can't see how a man who had all sorts of crap thrown at him in his lifetime suddenly doesn't realize that sometimes bad things happen, everyone dies eventually, and that it's all completely beyond his control. It's like he came down with a massive "the universe revolves around me" complex - our friends on Bajor died? It's because I married Kassidy. The Borg invaded? Because I married Kassidy. Vaughn is brain dead? Kassidy again. My dad died? Yep, you guessed it, because I made the decision to love and commit my life to Kassidy and start a family. What sort of God-complex did he come down with during his time with the Prophets? Plus, with the line of "the Prophets have left him after his use was up," he comes off as nothing more than an addict - trying to get that next hit, wondering where the high is and why it isn't as high, and despondent with the withdrawal.

Lots of stuff to respond to here. Before I do, though, let me just say that I'm not attempting to change your mind, but just responding to your comments. I understand that not every reader will enjoy my work, despite my best intentions. I don't take such reactions personally.

Anyway, there wasn't much I could do about the four-year gap between The Soul Key and Rough Beasts. I mean, I did what I could, and what seemed reasonable to me, but in the space alloted and given the tale I needed to tell, I simply could not fill in all the details of the events jumped over to get to 2381. At the same time, I felt it ludicrous to believe that all of the characters and situations would remain precisely where they were; such stagnation would have flown in the face of the very storytelling that makes Deep Space Nine so compelling, both on television and in the books.

I agree that you don't get to see the tension between Ben and Kasidy develop organically, but I would also argue that it didn't develop organically; it developed as a result of Sisko coming to the realization that he made a terrible mistake, and then forcing that tension. Yes, he comes to believe that bad things are happening because he married Kasidy, but it's not out of ego; it's because he was warned about this by the Prophets. You can debate about the wisdom of believing in prophecy, but what the Prophets offer is not really prophecy; it's eyewitness testimony. They live in the past and the present and the future at the same time, and so they knew what would happen if Sisko married Kasidy. He chose not to heed that warning, and he ultimately comes to realize the foolishness of such a course.

To my way of thinking, that warning leveled at Sisko in the final season of the television series--"If you do [spend your life with her], you will know nothing but sorrow"--was never fulfilled. It almost seems a cheat for the Prophets to have told Sisko something so important and for them then to be wrong.

Also, I think it's important to realize that Sisko takes the drastic actions he does not to ease his own burden, but because he believes that his burden will include something terrible happening to his wife and daughter. What he does, he does to save them.

Clem1029 wrote:

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The flip side to this is that it's possible to see someone hitting this rock bottom and making drastic decisions based on any rationalization he can come up with. But we don't get to see that - we're treated to what looks like a complete character break rather than normal character development. To be fair, this isn't the fault of the book or of the author - it's the result of the DS9 Great Leap forward. There's no context to his actions - it's just a jarring jump.

In all honesty, it's supposed to be jarring. And I disagree that there's no context. It's simply that some of the context occurred years earlier, during the series' final season.

Clem1029 wrote:

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• It was nice to see what happened to Vaughn from what we saw in ZSG. He's not dead, and they're not pulling the plug, so I'm guessing there's something for this storyline down the way. If I were a betting man, I'd suggest there's going to be something Prophet-related going on with him at the end of the day.
• Vedek Kira - from Attained to Vedek in 5 years? Not too shabby. Again, this is something that I could buy into, but it happens with little-to-no context.
• The Ascendants - apparently that was a thing that happened.

I would again say that there is context, although you rightly point out that some of that context is four years of "missing" story.

Clem1029 wrote:

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I hate to say it (because it would serious bum me out if it were true), the DS9R threads in the Typhon Pact books almost seem to be the epilogue to the DS9 story. It just comes off as cleaning up/cutting various hanging threads, reposition all the characters to different points in their lives, completely remove/separate everyone, and end the ongoing stories. 2 starships with new crews, practically a 3rd new crew on the station, plus all the Bajoran religious/political happenings (along with whatever ends up going on with Shar in Paths of Disharmony)...it just seems too much for a DS9 branded series to keep up with and do justice to. Instead, spread everyone out, look in on them/have them show up randomly from time to time in other novels, but the "Season 8" style of the relaunch (Avatar through Unity) seems to be a thing of the past. From a publication/editorial perspective this makes some level of sense - remove one ongoing series from the rotation, instead work it into the main narrative and just rebrand everything under the "Star Trek" moniker.

I really hope I'm wrong about this, but after ZSG and RBoE, I can't shake the feeling that the DS9 relaunch (such that it was) is over.

From where I sit, the ongoing Deep Space Nine story is not over. Of course, I can't make any promises, and I'm not the guy in charge of such things. I really wish I could say more, but professionalism prevents me from doing so.

Clem1029 wrote:

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Anywho, enough of my rambling - RBoE is a good read in a vacuum, a frustrating read for the ongoing story threads, but mostly comes off as repositioning and setup for whatever comes "next."

I'm disappointed to hear that the novel didn't satisfy you, but I appreciate you reading it and taking the time to comment here. I'll cling to the "good read in a vacuum" as a positive.

[kkozoriz1]

One thing that really bothers me about Sisko's choices is that the original plan was for Sisko to die at the end of DS9. Avery Brooks convinced the writers to put in the promise to return to Kassidy because he didn't want to see another broken African-American family. Sisko made the promise because he knew he wouldn't leave her. He would have found a way around the prophesy. Words can always be interpreted in different ways. This makes Sisko look like a quitter, taking the easy way out and leaving rather than fighting for his family and finding a way to stay with them.

[flemm]

David R. George III wrote:

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You can debate about the wisdom of believing in prophecy, but what the Prophets offer is not really prophecy; it's eyewitness testimony.

It presents that same problem that regular prophecy does to human beings in that the words are enigmatic. What does that mean? What does that mean? is the constant refrain when dealing with the prophets. A good example of this is the episode Destiny, wherein everyone misinterprets the prophecy about the Temple Gates in one way or another, which influences their actions as they struggle to understand what the words mean. It's only once the prophecy has fulfilled itself that full understanding is possible. Part of the question becomes: what would you have done in this situation had there been no prophecy? This is an important question because the quandry is something like the following: "We can't really know what the words mean or whether the prophecy will be fulfilled, but we can be true to ourselves and do what we think is right."

Inevitably, if characters begin to betray themselves and do things that are manifestly wrong because of what they have heard in prophecy, that is catastrophic because (1) they are probably misinterpreting the prophecy, (2) they are acting out of fear and (3) betraying their own sense of ethics and morality. This is relevant whether or not we believe in prophecy because the same scenario can arise whenever human beings act out of fear or believe they know what the future will bring. The story in RBoE seems to be unaware of these types of issues.

Sisko is doing something that is manifestly wrong for dubious reasons. But perhaps the reasons aren't dubious, but are actually cold, hard facts? Well, they don't really seem to be. Sisko isn't able to articulate what he saw in the Temple among all of the possible futures to which he was exposed during his non-linear existence, and he is embarrassed to even try to explain his reasoning to Kassidy.

In passing, it really wouldn't have been very interesting if, over the course of the television series, the Prophets had merely provided the Emissary with snapshots of the future that the characters could then act on without hesitation. Presumably they never did this because they can't do this. They perceive the universe differently, but that perception can only be communicated in an inexact and ambiguous manner to linear beings, i.e. it seems to work pretty much like regular prophecy.

David R. George III wrote:

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To my way of thinking, that warning leveled at Sisko in the final season of the television series--"If you do [spend your life with her], you will know nothing but sorrow"--was never fulfilled. It almost seems a cheat for the Prophets to have told Sisko something so important and for them then to be wrong.

Well, within the context of the television series, I think it was. Leaving his family behind on Bajor is the great sorrow referred to by the prophets. Family is what matters most to Sisko, so being unable to be there for his family and the birth of his daughter is a huge tragedy for him (which makes the events of RBoE even more... odd). It's true, however, that he returned fairly quickly in the relaunch, so I do think it makes sense to follow up on this in one way or another.

I guess the rest of this probably needs to be tagged for spoilers as well.

David R. George III wrote:

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Also, I think it's important to realize that Sisko takes the drastic actions he does not to ease his own burden, but because he believes that his burden will include something terrible happening to his wife and daughter. What he does, he does to save them.

It doesn't come across that way imho, for a couple of reasons.

Part of the issue, I think, is that this story doesn't make interesting use of the predicament in which Sisko finds himself or the concept of prophecy in general. Basically, from what I can glean from the novel and your comments, what we are to believe is that Sisko has seen one future where his wife and/or daughter dies because he stays with them, and another where this doesn't happen because he doesn't stay with them.

In that scenario, there's no reason for him not to tell Kassidy, since it's not a question of faith or belief at all. Everybody knows that the non-linear aliens in the temple see glimpses of the future. I mean, Kassidy knows Sisko spent a bunch of time in the Celestial Temple recently. In this reading, it's just a question of information being transmitted to Sisko that he needs to act on.

What, then, is Sisko so embarrassed and ashamed of? The story reads more like Sisko is trying to find an excuse to ditch his wife and daughter. I'm sure that was not intentional, but that's what it feels like. If Sisko had really received enough information from the prophets to make this a clear-cut decision, then there's no reason for him to be ashamed of his decision or to be afraid of explaining it to Kassidy.

Despite Sisko's (and your) protestations to the contrary, he seems to be acting in an extremely selfish manner so that he can shirk the responsiblities of being a father and husband (which is out of character for Sisko).

kkozoriz1 wrote:

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Sisko made the promise because he knew he wouldn't leave her. He would have found a way around the prophesy. Words can always be interpreted in different ways. This makes Sisko look like a quitter, taking the easy way out and leaving rather than fighting for his family and finding a way to stay with them

I basically agree.

[JoeZhang]

I thought this was fairly poor, it's well written in many ways and would make a great space opera book if done with original characters but not so great as a Star Trek book. The first problem is that it simply feels like a Spock book with some DS9 aspects rammed into it rather than a coherent novel.

Moreover turning a black man into a deadbeat dad has all sorts of negative vibes attached to it, regardless of how it's dressed up in the story - something that I believe that Avery Brooks was keen to avoid in the final episode of DS9 which is why Sisko promises to return.

All in all, the wider problem is that it when read in conjunction with the more recent books, it just more dark pessimistic stuff, absolutely no trace of any light, none of the quality that attracted me to Star Trek in the first place. It's the opposite of how Craig Ferguson described Doctor Who, it's the triumph of brutality and violence over intellect and romance.

[Ronald Held]

I am uncertain that without Spock, the Reunification movement will go much farther than it will go in those years. Then again, I do not think the Typhoon pact will last that long.
This may be an unpopular sentiment, bu I think that without the influence of the Prophets, Sisko would have been an unexceptional individual.

[flemm]

JoeZhang wrote:

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Moreover turning a black man into a deadbeat dad has all sorts of negative vibes attached to it, regardless of how it's dressed up in the story - something that I believe that Avery Brooks was keen to avoid in the final episode of DS9 which is why Sisko promises to return.

Agreed, especially given that the motivations are so dubious here. In the tv series, Sisko only leaves because he as to accomplish his duty as the Emissary. If he doesn't go, then he is putting the alpha quadrant at risk. This is equivalent to his putting his life on the line in battle as a Starfleet officer.

Granted, the culmination of this plot thread was not the DS9 writers' *ahem* finest hour, but at any rate there was a lot at stake beyond personal happiness or preference. Even with all that in mind, I can see why Brooks lobbied for the possibility of an eventual return or at least an expression of intent to that end.

In RBoE it feels like Sisko is looking for any excuse to abandon his family while convincing himself that he is doing it for unselfish reasons. The reasons given are extremely flimsy and do not stand up to much scrutiny, as even Sisko seems to recognize by his refusal to openly discuss them with Kassidy.

The end strikes me as especially misguided from this point of view in that it seems to show a relieved Sisko finally free of his responsibilities after having filed for divorce from long distance and now he's ready to relax and have a drink with his shipmates.

Yikes