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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Rough Beasts Of Empire
Outstanding 36 25.53%
Above Average 58 41.13%
Average 25 17.73%
Below Average 13 9.22%
Poor 9 6.38%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 15 2012, 09:35 PM   #526
WarsTrek1993
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I thought it was quite interesting to read about how Sisko would react if the prophets REALLY started acting up. But I much prefer the Spock arc over the Sisko one, because we see more of Spock and his movement.
George never fails with descriptions, I'll say that much. Like the beginning where Spock is stabbed by the Reman. You can almost feel Spock's pain during that moment.
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Old February 16 2012, 12:06 PM   #527
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Well to be technically I am not sure the Prophets can get things wrong so them being right is no surprise although like all oracles they are scarce on the details.
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Old February 16 2012, 12:24 PM   #528
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I loved this book. Epic, awesome, and I pre-ordered DRGIII's follow-up duology about a month ago.

My favourite bit was....
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Old February 16 2012, 03:16 PM   #529
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
Well to be technically I am not sure the Prophets can get things wrong so them being right is no surprise although like all oracles they are scarce on the details.
Right. The so-called Prophets aren't just having visions of the future, they exist in the future. They have firsthand experience of what it holds. Any inaccuracies would have to be matters of interpretation, either the Prophets' interpretation of what they witness firsthand or the listener's interpretation of how they describe it.

Although that doesn't address the question of branching timelines...
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Old February 16 2012, 03:23 PM   #530
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Didn't Sisko teach them about all that in the Millenium trilogy?
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Old February 16 2012, 03:27 PM   #531
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Didn't Sisko teach them about all that in the Millenium trilogy?
If I recall, the wormhole aliens discovered/stated/arranged that they "always win", which was actually a rather touching moment, at least how I interpreted it.
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Old June 28 2013, 02:20 PM   #532
Charles Phipps
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Heya,

I just finished this book in the Typhon Pact and am writing up my review of it on my website. Overall, I have a very positive opinion of the novel and its contents. David R. George III has an excellent grasp of characterization and I very much enjoyed his ability to get into the heads of my favorite characters. I also give him kudos for his depiction of depression, which has afflicted several family members over the years and which Sisko's depiction of suffering seems to be very spot-on. I was really moved by a lot of the scenes.

Qualities I really liked

* Spock achieving the Reunification Movement's legalization is quite impressive. It's been a long time of basically being "Christians under Rome" and seeing it decriminalized is wonderful. Sadly, the very fact they're part of the Typhon Pact more or less renders it a paper tiger.

* The treatment of Donatra is amongst my favorite in her many depictions. You managed to capture the "Golden Girl" image I think the various books have given her and the idea she was much more approachable, likable, as well as charismatic than the majority of Romulan leaders. In a subtle way, I felt people would WANT to follow Donatra in a way that they wouldn't other characters.

* As mentioned, Ben Sisko's grief and melancholy are poignant. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the Federation is feeling what he's feeling after the events of Star Trek: Destiny. As much as I'd like "The Old Sisko" to be able to rise above all this, after the Dominion War and so on, it's seemingly the case of the *two ton bricks which landed on the already two ton pile that broke the camel's back."

* I'm glad you inserted a scene I've been DYING FOR in Star Trek for literal decades. Basically, a Captain tells one of their First Officers "no, you may NOT speak freely." It was about time someone took a stand against disrespect and insubordination. I'm glad it was the Sisko. I just wish it had ended with said person in the brig.

As Reed would say, you respect the office.

* Kira's brief appearance was a wholly welcome one and I need to research where I can find out how she ended up in the clergy (there's a lot of books in the Novelverse). Her attempts to reach out to Sisko during his loss of faith are very true to life how I've felt about a lot of people in my own life. That there simply isn't the words to help, be they reassurances about God or the fact people love you, to comfort those you care about in pain. Sometimes it just isn't enough.



* I wanted to reach in and strangle the Tzenkethi, which is a strong emotional reaction to their manipulations to say the least. As much as I hate what they've done, it's also nice to see badness and duplicity prevail. The fact they've installed a friendly Praetor to the Federation doesn't mitigate their crimes or effect. Also, having killed an Empress and a Praetor, why stop there? As stated in "License to Kill" by Sanchez, "You're only President for life, my friend."

* Mrs. Sisko, now Ms. Yates reacted exactly the way she should have. Glad she didn't take Sisko's rationalizations.

Things I didn't like

Disclaimer: This isn't a reflection on DRGIII as an author, just a reaction to the events involved. Basically, I don't dislike the way it was done, just am unhappy it happened. Ned Stark getting decapitated is great storytelling but I feel awful about it.

* I'm really saddened by the end of the Imperial Romulan State. I was keeping my fingers crossed we'd see the IRS join the Khitomer Accords and suddenly have permanently allied Romulans to the Federation. It seemed perfect as a way to give us Romulans working on our side and a natural extension of events given Donatra's friendly nature to the Feddies. Watching the Romulan Empire get reborn is just depressing, especially since I mentally associate with a slave-holding state (poor Remans) and consider any such government innately vile. There's no evidence the IRS *ISN'T* a slave-holding state but I guess I hoped that better ties with the Feddies would help remove that problem.

From my perspective, the IRS was the last best hope for the Romulans and I'm unmoved by its new friendly Praetor versus Donatra.

* Obviously, I'm saddened by Donatra's death. A great light has gone out from the Romulan race and with it, hope for their people. Romulus died this book.

Hobus will just finish the job.

(Hyperbole much? Yes, I'm a fanboy. We are a race of sound and fury, signifying nothing)

* I was hoping Sisko would be able to come terms with his depression and loss of faith. This may surprise people but I grew up in a very religious area but fell into some bad influences (people who are the kinds of folk who give Kai Winn a bad name). Star Trek: Deep Space Nine simultaneously helped me question a lot of the assumptions I'd been leading while helping me come to terms with questions of faith vs. science.

Seeing such a good and strong man lose everything which gave his life meaning is heartbreaking and you captured every bit of that.

Anyway, I look forward to reading more books in the series as well as those by the author.
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Old June 28 2013, 03:22 PM   #533
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Re: TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote:
I profoundly doubt that Section 31 is anywhere near as powerful or widespread as it likes to think it is. Contrary to the absurd fantasies of fiction, the bigger a conspiracy is, the more inevitable its exposure becomes, because there are more opportunities for things to go wrong, more lines of communication to be intercepted, more people who could have second thoughts or be co-opted, etc. The idea of a vast, all-powerful, pervasive conspiracy that nobody knows about is a contradiction in terms. The only way Section 31 could've lasted as long as it has and stayed as well-hidden as it has is by being small and limiting its activities.

So the tendency of some fans to assume that S31 has its talons in every single intelligence operation or ethically questionable action in Federation history is one that should be resisted. The problem with conspiracy theories is that they're based on the lack of evidence for a conspiracy. When you're imagining an unknown menace, your imagination tends to run away and picture it as something huge and supernatural and unbeatable. Usually, if there's any real threat underlying the conspiracy theory at all, then the facts would show it's much less powerful, competent, and expansive and far more vulnerable.
If you don't mind me bringing this long-overdone plot up, my take on Section 31 was that it was never a secret so much as it was deniable. A factor in RL conspiracy theories is that there's whole secret armies, bases, and unlimited resources. About the only "secret" group which ever had that sort of authority was the SS. Ian Fleming created SPECTRE as a miniature version of this but, as we know, that series has its own incredibilities (also, Ian Fleming had it wiped out fairly easily once its existence was exposed).

From what we see of Section 31 in the show and even in the novels, it instead functions more like a license to break the rules. If it was behind the phase cloaking device, it doesn't employ a vast army of Section 31 officers but has Starfleet personnel like Riker and the crew of U.S.S Pegasus. We see this with Julian Bashir as the group "recruits" a man they send on missions that they may or may not actually want to do.

In short, its probably a very small organization. Maybe as few as a dozen individuals. Its authority is probably, ironically, its unquestionability. You can't go over their heads because they answer to no one.

I imagine if Section 31 wanted to create an Android, they wouldn't have a big space station with S31 on a bunch of banners like in a video game but simply find someone like Noonien Soong and make them an offer of unlimited resources. How do they do they get these resources? Criminal activity perhaps, black budgets (which may or may not come from blackmailing politicians) or its own factors.

I think Section 31's relationship to Starfleet Intelligence is closer and darker than people think. Basically, whenever they need something done illegal--they let it fall into S31's hands and if the mission fails or the agents are caught, they're just blamed for it. Disavowed as Mission Impossible would say.

It's why the 25th century ending with their destruction may not be permanent. Not because they're not destroyed but because that may just mean those in power will need someone similar to S31 to do their dirty work.
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Old June 28 2013, 03:28 PM   #534
Christopher
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
* Kira's brief appearance was a wholly welcome one and I need to research where I can find out how she ended up in the clergy (there's a lot of books in the Novelverse).
There's nothing to research. There's a four-year gap in the DS9 narrative between the events of The Soul Key and Rough Beasts of Empire. RBoE was the book that first revealed the events of that interval to us in retrospect -- kind of like the way ST:TMP began with Kirk already an admiral, Spock almost completing Kolinahr, McCoy as a bearded hermit, etc., or the way TUC began with Sulu already completing his third year as Excelsior captain. As with those things, maybe someday we'll get flashback tales filling in the gap, but to date all we have are the books picking up after the gap, i.e. the loose trilogy of RBoE, Plagues of Night, and Raise the Dawn.


From my perspective, the IRS was the last best hope for the Romulans and I'm unmoved by its new friendly Praetor versus Donatra.

* Obviously, I'm saddened by Donatra's death. A great light has gone out from the Romulan race and with it, hope for their people. Romulus died this book.
You may feel differently after reading PoN/RtD.
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Old June 28 2013, 03:39 PM   #535
Charles Phipps
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
There's nothing to research. There's a four-year gap in the DS9 narrative between the events of The Soul Key and Rough Beasts of Empire. RBoE was the book that first revealed the events of that interval to us in retrospect -- kind of like the way ST:TMP began with Kirk already an admiral, Spock almost completing Kolinahr, McCoy as a bearded hermit, etc., or the way TUC began with Sulu already completing his third year as Excelsior captain. As with those things, maybe someday we'll get flashback tales filling in the gap, but to date all we have are the books picking up after the gap, i.e. the loose trilogy of RBoE, Plagues of Night, and Raise the Dawn.
Thanks for clarifying! It's an interesting change!

You may feel differently after reading PoN/RtD.
*eagerly goes to download them on his Kindle*

Thanks for taking time out from your schedule to keep your fans informed, Christopher. We appreciate it.

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Old June 28 2013, 09:39 PM   #536
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blo...beasts-of.html

Here's my review if anyone is interested.

Great book.
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