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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Rough Beasts Of Empire
Outstanding 36 25.35%
Above Average 59 41.55%
Average 25 17.61%
Below Average 13 9.15%
Poor 9 6.34%
Voters: 142. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 24 2011, 08:13 PM   #316
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

So, your solution to a political entity that formed out of fear of the Federation's soft imperialism is for the Federation to ramp up, so the Typhon Pact can fear our hard imperialism instead. This, to me, does not seem to address the Pact's desire to frustrate Federation expansionism.
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Old February 24 2011, 08:18 PM   #317
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^Chris, I never stated or assumed that the Pact is "an aggressor bent on conquest". I fail to see how I ever gave that impression.


As for "their rivalry with the Federation [being] based on a desire to destroy it"--again, I never argued that that was the case. That does not, however, diminish the stated purpose of the Pact in A Singular Destiny.

Now, one could argue that the Tholian's "We Will Bury You"-type rant in that book is not representative of the Pact as a whole. I grant that. However--this begs for the question: has the Pact disavowed these claims in an official manner? If so, when? If not, why not?

Now, you brought up the Breen. Their theft of the slipstream technology certainly implies an "arms race" of a sort--for defensive or offensive measures, I don't know...and we won't know for certain until later.

Nonetheless...we simply cannot assume that the Pact simply wants to engage in Peaceful Coexistence. We can certainly hope for that--but the more aggresive words and actions of the Tholians and the Breen should, at the very least, give us pause.

Trust, yes--but verify, as well. Putting the gun down first might be the first step to peace--but it could just as easily just get you shot. Verification is needed. Until then, the Alliance must be weary, and ready to defend itself should the Tholians and Breen increase their influence.

Hope for the best--but prepare for the worst. And if the worst should happen...Kamemor had better be prepared to chose on which side of the line in the sand she will stand.


Now--Nasat, I agree, you are one of the most fair and balanced posters in any debate (though I often can't help but wonder if those who made the claim that you are the most level-headed and sensible are trying to dimishish my own considerable brilliance and insight...). And I certainly see your point as to the official justification of "UFP Imperialism".

Still...let me be Socratic (somehow, the term "devil's advocate" doesn't sound so good) for a moment.

You also pointed out the hypocrisy in the Romulans' making these claims about Imperialism. Might I also point out that the Federation has never tried to "assimilate" these other powers. All members have, of course, became such of their own free will.

Now...I could understand their fears being due to the fact that the UFP is big. However, a look at Star Charts shows that the Tholians and the Breen are not exactly innocent in that regard.

Finally...if it truly is due to a (real or percieved) fear of UFP Imperialism...then I wonder, what would be the UFP's solution, to dissuade their fears, and make them learn to love us?
I completely agree with everything you've just said, Rush.

Although, I would argue the Federation should "Проверим, то доверие" - "Verify, then trust", especially in light of all the points you've brought up.
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Old February 24 2011, 08:19 PM   #318
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^Thanks.

David cgc wrote: View Post
So, your solution to a political entity that formed out of fear of the Federation's soft imperialism is for the Federation to ramp up, so the Typhon Pact can fear our hard imperialism instead. This, to me, does not seem to address the Pact's desire to frustrate Federation expansionism.
That is a straw man, David cgc--an oversimplification of what I said, to make it look worse than it does. I simply said that the Alliance must be prepared for the worst. Speaking softly only has weight if you have the big stick, should things go wrong.

I ask, then: if that is not a good idea--if, as you claim, that encourages fear--then I ask again, what would you suggest?
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Old February 24 2011, 08:22 PM   #319
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

David cgc wrote: View Post
So, your solution to a political entity that formed out of fear of the Federation's soft imperialism is for the Federation to ramp up, so the Typhon Pact can fear our hard imperialism instead. This, to me, does not seem to address the Pact's desire to frustrate Federation expansionism.
That's not what he's saying at all.

What I got from Rush's post is that the Federation should hope that the Typhon Pact will want to not fight or challenge the Federation (at least, not more so than they already have) but shouldn't expect that they will do so, and to be prepared for either eventuality, which to me means to be wary (especially considering the Pact's recent actions in Paths of Disharmony) as well as to not be too trusting, especially with slipstream.

Further, I'm not sure there's really anything the Federation *could* do to show the Typhon Pact that they aren't imperialistic expansionists, unless the Federation were willing to surrender several planets and/or sectors. But that would probably just make the Typhon Pact even more suspicious.
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Old February 24 2011, 08:31 PM   #320
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
But remember the entire point of the Pact: To counter the influence of the Federation.
Ah, but that's it exactly; they're not really offensively hostile to the UFP (as is highlighted by the comments that none of the nations involved really have a taste for war); they're more defensively hostile - your highlighted point about "countering" it is right on the money, I think, and actually argues against the position you're advancing. Good relations with the Federation isn't necessarily at odds with the Pact's purpose at all, because the "war" the Pact members are fighting against the UFP is based on their defensiveness, not a pure aggression. The Pact members see the Federation as something expansionist, encroaching on them economically, ideologically. Their conflict is more with Federation expansion than the Federation itself. They want to constrain the Federation and serve as a bulwark against its continuing rapid expansion both literally and more to the point ideologically. From the viewpoint of most of the Pact members, the UFP is the one which is "aggressing"; even the Romulans call it "imperialistic" (with great hypocrisy of course, but that in itself shows the strength of their perception that the Federation is out to subvert their nation and assimilate their culture). The Pact doesn't want to conquer - it wants to "defend" itself against what it sees (largely incorrectly of course) as a continuing ideological "attack" by the massive, ever-expanding UFP.
This is exactly, exactly right. It is royally missing the point to assume the Typhon Pact is an aggressor bent on conquest, or that their rivalry with the Federation is based on a desire to destroy it. Yes, the Tholians and the Breen may feel that way to an extent, but even they see it as a defensive measure.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. Props to deranged_nasat for that great post!

It's worth noting that the Federation's alliance with the Klingon Empire isn't helping the Federation's case. The Kinshaya are inveterately hostile towards the Klingons, justifiably so IMHO after the Klingons escalated their border war by destroying the Kinshaya homeworld, while the Tholians resented being grouped alongside the Klingons. And then, of course, there's the Romulan-Klingon relationship ...

As long as the UFP, and more broadly the Khitomer Alliance, is the sole superpower in the quadrant, then everything revolves around it and other nations are just satellites trapped in its orbit. If it's not the sole superpower anymore, if its influence is balanced and diminished, then the quadrant doesn't revolve around it anymore. And that's what motivated the creation of the Pact: the desire for an existence that isn't defined solely in relation to the Federation.
I'd argue that in the end the Typhon Pact may end up serving the Federation's interests, by keeping it from getting sloppy and by embedding most of its long-time allies deep in a multilateral framework where they'll have to learn to cooperate and compromise and generally become quite Federation-like.
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Old February 24 2011, 08:35 PM   #321
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Now, one could argue that the Tholian's "We Will Bury You"-type rant in that book is not representative of the Pact as a whole. I grant that. However--this begs for the question: has the Pact disavowed these claims in an official manner? If so, when? If not, why not?

Now, you brought up the Breen. Their theft of the slipstream technology certainly implies an "arms race" of a sort--for defensive or offensive measures, I don't know...and we won't know for certain until later.
From the Typhon Pact perspective--rather, the Typhon non-Romulan perspective---they've been in an arms race with the Federation for quite some time and far behind, too.

Point re: the claims, by the way.

You also pointed out the hypocrisy in the Romulans' making these claims about Imperialism. Might I also point out that the Federation has never tried to "assimilate" these other powers. All members have, of course, became such of their own free will.
That's largely true, yes.

That doesn't mean that, from the non-Federation perspective, the Federation isn't culturally imperialistic/influential/whatever you want to call it beyond its frontiers. Its influence in rebuilding Cardassia comes to mind, likewise the apparent moderation of the Klingon Empire.

Now...I could understand their fears being due to the fact that the UFP is big. However, a look at Star Charts shows that the Tholians and the Breen are not exactly innocent in that regard.
Sure.

Finally...if it truly is due to a (real or percieved) fear of UFP Imperialism...then I wonder, what would be the UFP's solution, to dissuade their fears, and make them learn to love us?
Trust and verify.
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Old February 24 2011, 08:48 PM   #322
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Now--Nasat, I agree, you are one of the most fair and balanced posters in any debate (though I often can't help but wonder if those who made the claim that you are the most level-headed and sensible are trying to dimishish my own considerable brilliance and insight...). And I certainly see your point as to the official justification of "UFP Imperialism".
Well, I may not agree with you, but I think you always speak your mind with great eloquence.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Still...let me be Socratic (somehow, the term "devil's advocate" doesn't sound so good) for a moment.

You also pointed out the hypocrisy in the Romulans' making these claims about Imperialism. Might I also point out that the Federation has never tried to "assimilate" these other powers. All members have, of course, became such of their own free will.

Now...I could understand their fears being due to the fact that the UFP is big. However, a look at Star Charts shows that the Tholians and the Breen are not exactly innocent in that regard.
You're of course quite right that the Federation is not actually out to destroy or conquer anyone, and propaganda aside I'm sure the Pact largely realizes that. They know the UFP isn't going to try and invade them in a Klingon-style grab for control. What they fear most is ideological expansion, Federation ideals seeping in, and a galaxy that says "how high?" to the Federation's happy "jump!"

The Federation explores, negotiates trade and cultural exchanges, encourages community. It actively presents itself to the galaxy and seeks to encourage its idea of a galactic "community" of worlds and peoples - and that's certainly not a bad thing, I'm quick to assure you. The UFP are our heroic protagonists, and while they're not perfect (and have some questionable ideas in there somewhere), overall they're obviously a force for great good. But even the respectful, careful, entirely justified, well-meaning imposition of the UFP is still a form of imposition. And some cultures will not like to see a galaxy happily knitted together into a Federation community when the ideals of that nation are not necessarily theirs. The Tzenkethi, say - who are opposed to any democratic ideology. If the Federation is setting the galactic agenda, then their influence will be inescapable for anyone who isn't entirely isolationist. In those circumstances, how long before some in the D echelons of Tzenkethi society start believing that their opinion matters as much as that of the B echelons? A horryfying prospect to most Tzenkethi - the unravelling of their carefully maintained order. The Tzenkethi feel the need to draw a line and retain a sense of self, a position that isn't determined by the UFP, directly or indirectly.

And it's indirectly far more often than directly, they know that. When they criticise the UFP, the Pact members constantly use words like "hypocrisy" -they see a Federation that speaks of diversity and respect and yet from their viewpoint a Federation-led galaxy is inherently hostile to their own traditions, ideologies and such - and the UFP refuses to see it. And yes, we readers know that the Federation goes out of its way to be respectful and second-guesses itself to death; I'm certainly not suggesting the Pact is right. They have some good points in there, but they're overreacting and misreading the UFP's intentions out of their own paranoia. But the core of their position here is understandable.

The Federation are indeed the good guys - but I think the point a lot of us are making is that those who oppose the good guys are not necessarily "the bad guys" in any straightforward sense.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Finally...if it truly is due to a (real or percieved) fear of UFP Imperialism...then I wonder, what would be the UFP's solution, to dissuade their fears, and make them learn to love us?
Well, that's the whole dilemma isn't it? How does the UFP convince the Pact "we're not out to get you, we are not a threat", and how do they balance that against the need to maintain their own security in the face of active threat from Pact operations? They have to defend themselves, yet also make it clear that they are only defending themselves - a difficult balance. "Zero Sum Game" dealt with that aspect, didn't it? The Breen breached Federation security, the Federation's response (which was of course justified), simply made the Breen and Tholians more dedicated to their hostile stance - "the Federtion blew up our shipyard!"

The Federation needs to show it's not a threat - but how does it do that in the current distrustful climate? Much of the Pact's current response to "look, we're not a threat" would be to shout "Quick! They're weak! Hit them with a stick! That'll keep them down!" The Federation needs to show that, no, it will NOT be hit with a stick. It will defend itself - but when it does so, the message of "no threat" is potentially lost, reinforcing the Pact's belief that they need to keep the stick at hand, because if they don't they'll be ruled from Earth in 20 years time....

So it's a frustrating situation.

So yes, it's tricky. If I could give an answer...well, I'd be trying to summarize a debate that's inherent to the Typhon Pact lit as a whole.
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Old February 24 2011, 09:47 PM   #323
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
And it's indirectly far more often than directly, they know that. When they criticise the UFP, the Pact members constantly use words like "hypocrisy" -they see a Federation that speaks of diversity and respect and yet from their viewpoint a Federation-led galaxy is inherently hostile to their own traditions, ideologies and such - and the UFP refuses to see it. And yes, we readers know that the Federation goes out of its way to be respectful and second-guesses itself to death; I'm certainly not suggesting the Pact is right. They have some good points in there, but they're overreacting and misreading the UFP's intentions out of their own paranoia. But the core of their position here is understandable.
And it's interesting that the Typhon Pact books, examining how a few mutually distrustful galactic powers came together to oppose a greater threat, are coming out at roughly the same time as Martin's Romulan War books, showing, well, how a few mutually distrustful galactic powers came together to oppose a greater threat. There's an interesting parallel of sorts there meriting exploration in depth.
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Old February 24 2011, 09:56 PM   #324
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
It's worth noting that the Federation's alliance with the Klingon Empire isn't helping the Federation's case. The Kinshaya are inveterately hostile towards the Klingons, justifiably so IMHO after the Klingons escalated their border war by destroying the Kinshaya homeworld, while the Tholians resented being grouped alongside the Klingons. And then, of course, there's the Romulan-Klingon relationship ...
Good point. Frankly, I believe it undermines any Federation pretentions of ethical behavior when they ally with a culture like the Klingons that engages in open conquest and subjugation of other worlds. I think the original intent in TNG was that the Klingons had become more reformed and enlightened, with the warmongering types being a dissident minority (see "Heart of Glory"). But over the years, writers got so caught up writing the Klingons as Space Vikings/Samurai and playing up their Warrior fetish ad nauseam that they ended up being basically as bloodthirsty and brutal as ever, and it became unclear why the Federation would want to be allied with these savage thugs. I mean, I'm all for not being at war with them, but portraying them as stalwart allies when they're so unreformed in their ways creates a certain cognitive dissonance.


I'd argue that in the end the Typhon Pact may end up serving the Federation's interests, by keeping it from getting sloppy and by embedding most of its long-time allies deep in a multilateral framework where they'll have to learn to cooperate and compromise and generally become quite Federation-like.
Yay, multilateralism!


Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
You're of course quite right that the Federation is not actually out to destroy or conquer anyone, and propaganda aside I'm sure the Pact largely realizes that. They know the UFP isn't going to try and invade them in a Klingon-style grab for control. What they fear most is ideological expansion, Federation ideals seeping in, and a galaxy that says "how high?" to the Federation's happy "jump!"
Right. By analogy (and I think this is a deliberate analogy on the part of the novelists), there are a lot of nations that are allied with or at least neutral toward America, and who know that we aren't an aggressive, conquering state, but who still fear and mistrust us because we're an 800-pound gorilla and we don't hesitate to throw our weight around and pressure everyone else to go along with our agendas, whether it serves them or not. It's hard to feel real trust or friendship toward someone when they have that much power over you. Even a lot of our closest allies still often resent our dominance.



The Federation are indeed the good guys - but I think the point a lot of us are making is that those who oppose the good guys are not necessarily "the bad guys" in any straightforward sense.
There you go again. A perfect, concise, enlightening formulation of the key point the rest of us are struggling to get across. In DS9, was Quark the bad guy because he resisted giving in to the Federation's ideals? Or was he a good guy by his own lights, reminding the smug Starfleet types that truly living up to their idealism meant respecting others' right to hold different ideals? Or what about Kira when she clashed with Sisko when she felt Starfleet's priorities conflicted with the good of Bajor? Certainly no bad guys there.
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Old February 24 2011, 10:34 PM   #325
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Valeris wrote: View Post
David cgc wrote: View Post
So, your solution to a political entity that formed out of fear of the Federation's soft imperialism is for the Federation to ramp up, so the Typhon Pact can fear our hard imperialism instead. This, to me, does not seem to address the Pact's desire to frustrate Federation expansionism.
That's not what he's saying at all.

What I got from Rush's post is that the Federation should hope that the Typhon Pact will want to not fight or challenge the Federation (at least, not more so than they already have) but shouldn't expect that they will do so, and to be prepared for either eventuality, which to me means to be wary (especially considering the Pact's recent actions in Paths of Disharmony) as well as to not be too trusting, especially with slipstream.
Precisely.

Further, I'm not sure there's really anything the Federation *could* do to show the Typhon Pact that they aren't imperialistic expansionists, unless the Federation were willing to surrender several planets and/or sectors. But that would probably just make the Typhon Pact even more suspicious.
Disturbing...but frankly, that may well be the case. In which case, it could well be better for the Federation to partake in the arms race the Breen seems to be playing.

One could suggest, for example, fortifying and building the Starbases and worlds near the borders of the Pact, as well as a significant build-up of the fleet. Obviously, though, that has the considerable risk of the Pact powers engaging in a preemptive strike before the UFP is ready for it.

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Now--Nasat, I agree, you are one of the most fair and balanced posters in any debate (though I often can't help but wonder if those who made the claim that you are the most level-headed and sensible are trying to dimishish my own considerable brilliance and insight...). And I certainly see your point as to the official justification of "UFP Imperialism".
Well, I may not agree with you, but I think you always speak your mind with great eloquence.
(Takes a bow.)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Still...let me be Socratic (somehow, the term "devil's advocate" doesn't sound so good) for a moment.

You also pointed out the hypocrisy in the Romulans' making these claims about Imperialism. Might I also point out that the Federation has never tried to "assimilate" these other powers. All members have, of course, became such of their own free will.

Now...I could understand their fears being due to the fact that the UFP is big. However, a look at Star Charts shows that the Tholians and the Breen are not exactly innocent in that regard.
You're of course quite right that the Federation is not actually out to destroy or conquer anyone, and propaganda aside I'm sure the Pact largely realizes that. They know the UFP isn't going to try and invade them in a Klingon-style grab for control. What they fear most is ideological expansion, Federation ideals seeping in, and a galaxy that says "how high?" to the Federation's happy "jump!"

The Federation explores, negotiates trade and cultural exchanges, encourages community. It actively presents itself to the galaxy and seeks to encourage its idea of a galactic "community" of worlds and peoples - and that's certainly not a bad thing, I'm quick to assure you. The UFP are our heroic protagonists, and while they're not perfect (and have some questionable ideas in there somewhere), overall they're obviously a force for great good. But even the respectful, careful, entirely justified, well-meaning imposition of the UFP is still a form of imposition. And some cultures will not like to see a galaxy happily knitted together into a Federation community when the ideals of that nation are not necessarily theirs. The Tzenkethi, say - who are opposed to any democratic ideology. If the Federation is setting the galactic agenda, then their influence will be inescapable for anyone who isn't entirely isolationist. In those circumstances, how long before some in the D echelons of Tzenkethi society start believing that their opinion matters as much as that of the B echelons? A horryfying prospect to most Tzenkethi - the unravelling of their carefully maintained order. The Tzenkethi feel the need to draw a line and retain a sense of self, a position that isn't determined by the UFP, directly or indirectly.[/QUOTE]

Disturbing, but tragically valid. Effectively...the Federation's own goodness, which has resulted in so many joining into its borders...thus also encourages the hostile forces of reaction.

Still...the Klingons still are who they are, regardless of its Alliance. If anything, they are less imperialistic due to the Alliance, as Bacco pointed out when schooling the isolationist/non-interventionalist Pagro.

[QUOTE]
And it's indirectly far more often than directly, they know that. When they criticise the UFP, the Pact members constantly use words like "hypocrisy" -they see a Federation that speaks of diversity and respect and yet from their viewpoint a Federation-led galaxy is inherently hostile to their own traditions, ideologies and such - and the UFP refuses to see it. And yes, we readers know that the Federation goes out of its way to be respectful and second-guesses itself to death; I'm certainly not suggesting the Pact is right. They have some good points in there, but they're overreacting and misreading the UFP's intentions out of their own paranoia. But the core of their position here is understandable.

The Federation are indeed the good guys - but I think the point a lot of us are making is that those who oppose the good guys are not necessarily "the bad guys" in any straightforward sense.
Well, I would suggest that the Soviets were not "bad guys", per se--though quite a few of their leaders were. Gorbachev, of course, was by and large a pretty good guy, and he and Reagan were eventually able to form a successful working relationship.

On that note...I'm a little amazed the books, as far as I know, don't seem to capitalize on Bacco's past successes with the Gorn. Surely she would work night and day to repair relations with them, amid all of this.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Finally...if it truly is due to a (real or percieved) fear of UFP Imperialism...then I wonder, what would be the UFP's solution, to dissuade their fears, and make them learn to love us?
Well, that's the whole dilemma isn't it? How does the UFP convince the Pact "we're not out to get you, we are not a threat", and how do they balance that against the need to maintain their own security in the face of active threat from Pact operations? They have to defend themselves, yet also make it clear that they are only defending themselves - a difficult balance. "Zero Sum Game" dealt with that aspect, didn't it? The Breen breached Federation security, the Federation's response (which was of course justified), simply made the Breen and Tholians more dedicated to their hostile stance - "the Federtion blew up our shipyard!"

The Federation needs to show it's not a threat - but how does it do that in the current distrustful climate? Much of the Pact's current response to "look, we're not a threat" would be to shout "Quick! They're weak! Hit them with a stick! That'll keep them down!" The Federation needs to show that, no, it will NOT be hit with a stick. It will defend itself - but when it does so, the message of "no threat" is potentially lost, reinforcing the Pact's belief that they need to keep the stick at hand, because if they don't they'll be ruled from Earth in 20 years time....

So it's a frustrating situation.

So yes, it's tricky. If I could give an answer...well, I'd be trying to summarize a debate that's inherent to the Typhon Pact lit as a whole.
I firmly agree with this, Nasat. However...let me go further. It would seem that, considering how accomodation would be taken as a sign of weakness and encourage their hitting the UFP--and how a strong defense would make them fearful, and hit the UFP--

Either way, the UFP gets hit.

So, then, the lesser of two evils would be a stronger defense. If they will hit us anyway, at least let us be ready.
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Old February 24 2011, 11:00 PM   #326
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Huh. Come to think of it, you're one of the major authors who didn't contribute a Typhon Pact novel. Just saying ...
I almost did, but I ended up taking the Abramsverse novel gig instead. Which is a choice I regret in retrospect.

But it's not like the Typhon Pact is going anywhere, so there are always possibilities...
Out of curiosity, and assuming you're permitted to say, what story do you think you might have submitted to the Typhon Pact project?

I had been wondering what the other two books in the existing project might have been, and what crews/series might be used to explore them, after the concept was reduced from six to four. The only remaining unexplored member of the Pact are the Kinshaya (although they got some love in ASD), and the natural fit to explore them further would seem to be the Gorkon/Klingon Empire series. But that would seem to suggest KRAD to write it. And what might the Da Vinci or the Excalibur have been up to that could tie into the project?

.
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Old February 24 2011, 11:03 PM   #327
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Precisely.
Oh, whew. I had hoped I didn't misrepresent your position.


Disturbing...but frankly, that may well be the case. In which case, it could well be better for the Federation to partake in the arms race the Breen seems to be playing.

One could suggest, for example, fortifying and building the Starbases and worlds near the borders of the Pact, as well as a significant build-up of the fleet. Obviously, though, that has the considerable risk of the Pact powers engaging in a preemptive strike before the UFP is ready for it.
I think a better middle path might be to focus on rebuilding the fleet. That wouldn't be too directly aggressive an action, and it would help shore up the defenses.

Further, I would make sure that the changes Bacco ordered in Zero Sum Game were implemented, as well as make doubly sure that the slipstream technology, and the group working on it, are secure.

Piggy-backing onto slipstream, I would also try to ramp up, if possible, slipstream production and installation, as that would also be a big benefit to defense.




Disturbing, but tragically valid. Effectively...the Federation's own goodness, which has resulted in so many joining into its borders...thus also encourages the hostile forces of reaction.
Ironic, no?

Now, this brings up an interesting thought: Should the Federation, in effect, stop being the Federation? By which I mean, stop the expansion and first contact and the like? I say no, because now, more than ever, is the time to expand trade, and find new members.

Still...the Klingons still are who they are, regardless of its Alliance. If anything, they are less imperialistic due to the Alliance, as Bacco pointed out when schooling the isolationist/non-interventionalist Pagro.
I had forgotten about her debate with Pagro!

(Speaking of which, I'm surprised to see him described as isolationist and non-interventionalist. I had just gotten the impression that he was merely anti-Khitomer Accords.

Also, where is he? You would think someone as well-connected and supposedly popular with many higher-ups at Starfleet wouldn't just stay quiet).

On that note...I'm a little amazed the books, as far as I know, don't seem to capitalize on Bacco's past successes with the Gorn. Surely she would work night and day to repair relations with them, amid all of this.
Agreed! The only time that Bacco's success with the Gorn is mentioned is when Spock talks to that Gorn on Romulus.

I firmly agree with this, Nasat. However...let me go further. It would seem that, considering how accomodation would be taken as a sign of weakness and encourage their hitting the UFP--and how a strong defense would make them fearful, and hit the UFP--

Either way, the UFP gets hit.

So, then, the lesser of two evils would be a stronger defense. If they will hit us anyway, at least let us be ready.
Exactly.
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Old February 24 2011, 11:26 PM   #328
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Ceding planets/sectors to the Typhon pact?
That worked really well with the Cardassian union.
Appeasement never works.
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Old February 24 2011, 11:31 PM   #329
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Out of curiosity, and assuming you're permitted to say, what story do you think you might have submitted to the Typhon Pact project?
Never got that far.
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Old February 24 2011, 11:32 PM   #330
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Valeris wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Precisely.
Oh, whew. I had hoped I didn't misrepresent your position.


Disturbing...but frankly, that may well be the case. In which case, it could well be better for the Federation to partake in the arms race the Breen seems to be playing.

One could suggest, for example, fortifying and building the Starbases and worlds near the borders of the Pact, as well as a significant build-up of the fleet. Obviously, though, that has the considerable risk of the Pact powers engaging in a preemptive strike before the UFP is ready for it.
I think a better middle path might be to focus on rebuilding the fleet. That wouldn't be too directly aggressive an action, and it would help shore up the defenses.

Further, I would make sure that the changes Bacco ordered in Zero Sum Game were implemented, as well as make doubly sure that the slipstream technology, and the group working on it, are secure.

Piggy-backing onto slipstream, I would also try to ramp up, if possible, slipstream production and installation, as that would also be a big benefit to defense.
I agree--although I must admit my minds a blank as to what Bacco ordered in ZSG.... *sigh*

I had forgotten about her debate with Pagro!

(Speaking of which, I'm surprised to see him described as isolationist and non-interventionalist. I had just gotten the impression that he was merely anti-Khitomer Accords.
Well, look at his reasons. During the debate, he noted it was because of Klingon...imperialism and expansion. There is also the fact that the Empire is supposed to be the UFP's major ally. Without them, the UFP would basically be on its own.

Also, where is he? You would think someone as well-connected and supposedly popular with many higher-ups at Starfleet wouldn't just stay quiet).
My guess? Gearing up his next campaign for president, preaching that "this is just what I said--our alliance with the Klingons causes other powers to be hostile to us!"
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