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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Rough Beasts Of Empire
Outstanding 36 25.53%
Above Average 58 41.13%
Average 25 17.73%
Below Average 13 9.22%
Poor 9 6.38%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 7 2011, 10:25 AM   #256
-Brett-
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I'll give the book props where it's due. I'm glad they finally killed off Tal'Aura and Donatra. Loooooong overdue. I would have gotten sick of them in Nemesis if they'd been anything more than glorified background extras with two minutes of screen time. I can't even begin to guess why they were given such a prominent role in the tie-ins.

The story of Romulan civilization getting back together and Spock's role in it was okay. The Sisko story? Not so much. I can't even figure out why he's in the book. His story is almost completely divorced from the main plot and his flashbacks are completely divorced even from his story. I'd guess he's only there to appease DS9 fans, except that making him a deadbeat dad doesn't seem like a good way to do that.

Since he apparently ragequit the forum, I won't sugarcoat it. I expected better from David R George. Below average.

Last edited by -Brett-; February 8 2011 at 12:50 AM.
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Old February 7 2011, 10:35 AM   #257
JoeZhang
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post

DRGIII felt that the board has just become unremittingly hostile and negative in general.

Let's accept this premise for a bit - so why has this happened?
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Old February 7 2011, 02:57 PM   #258
flemm
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
The problem with this assertion is that that's not what happened.
Well, I perfectly understand why DRGIII might prefer not to post on these boards or any other (and I'm indifferent to whether or not he continues posting here), but the main example given of the boards' dichotomous personality was the following:

David R. George III wrote: View Post
Posters here clamor for the Deep Space Nine story line to be brought "up to date" with the "current" literary Trek timeline, and then when it happens, other posters denounce the move.
It is simply not objectionable in any way that posters would have a variety of strong opinions on that topic. It would only be surprising if they did not.

Sci wrote: View Post
DRGIII felt that the board has just become unremittingly hostile and negative in general.
That seems an odd conclusion to draw in a thread that contains many, indeed mostly positive reactions. It is true that staunch defenders of all things Trek Lit tend to be among the most hostile posters in this forum, but I don't see that this was the case in this thread, and it seems unlikely that this tendency would be at the root of DRGIII's frustration in any event.

Sci wrote: View Post
It wasn't enough to say that a given creative decision didn't work for someone -- the decision had to be attacked on every single possible level in the angriest tones. I don't blame a guy for getting tired of that. There's a difference between criticism and just having your work attacked.
The angriest tones?

There's simply nothing in the thread that corresponds to that description. No one was gratuitously attacking DRGIII's work. It is in that sense that his reaction was immature.

Some posters did have strong negative reactions, but that is perfectly valid. There is also no reason not to criticize a certain creative decision in detail. Indeed, detailed analysis is often a necessity to justify a given criticism or interpretation, which would otherwise be dismissed as superficial.

So, analyzing a particular creative choice, or picking it apart "on every possible level" should not be perceived as offensive by any stretch of the imagination, certainly no more than going to great lengths to defend a particular creative choice or interpretation.
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Old February 7 2011, 03:32 PM   #259
SicOne
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ What, did he think this was the Neutral Zone forum? He'd be eaten alive and screaming in there.
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Old February 7 2011, 06:07 PM   #260
Sci
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

flemm wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
It wasn't enough to say that a given creative decision didn't work for someone -- the decision had to be attacked on every single possible level in the angriest tones. I don't blame a guy for getting tired of that. There's a difference between criticism and just having your work attacked.
The angriest tones?

There's simply nothing in the thread that corresponds to that description.
Dude, he was being accused of perpetuating stereotypes about black men as deadbeat dads, and the events of the novel themselves were being twisted and falsely described as "Sisko abandons his family because of a prophecy that any reader of prophecy fiction knows he can't avoid anyway." People weren't just criticizing his work, they were attacking it, and now they're attacking him for choosing not to put up with it.

SicOne wrote: View Post
^ What, did he think this was the Neutral Zone forum? He'd be eaten alive and screaming in there.
Shit like this, right here. Could you possibly be any more condescending and disrespectful?

ETA:

And while I can't speak for DRGIII, I'd point out that you should bear in mind that it may not have been just the reaction to Rough Beasts of Empire that prompted this decision. Several months ago, for instance, he was involved in a thread reviewing the Crucible trilogy, and a poster accused him of choosing to write a sex scene solely out of a lascivious desire to increase book sales and of deliberately violating the "real" characterization of Edith Keeler. When DRGIII replied that he put that there because he honestly felt that such a relationship made sense and was an organic characterization choice, he was accused of lying and of making Edith Keeler into a "whore." So I frankly wouldn't be too surprised if this was merely the straw the broke the camel's back.
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Old February 7 2011, 06:33 PM   #261
SicOne
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ If you'll pop over to the Neutral Zone forum, you'll see the thread in which I was defending him.
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Old February 7 2011, 06:52 PM   #262
Sci
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

SicOne wrote: View Post
^ If you'll pop over to the Neutral Zone forum, you'll see the thread in which I was defending him.
Fair enough, and your statements in that thread seem reasonable to me.

But I definitely think that there was a lot of disproportionate hostility over DRGIII's and the editor's creative decisions, and I don't blame him for not wanting to put up with it.
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Old February 7 2011, 08:51 PM   #263
Ronald Held
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

With all of the recent opportunities for Picard to accept an promotion, is this delibrate foreshadowing of him becoming an Ambassador in the STXI timeframe(or STO)?
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Old February 7 2011, 09:05 PM   #264
SicOne
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
SicOne wrote: View Post
^ If you'll pop over to the Neutral Zone forum, you'll see the thread in which I was defending him.
Fair enough, and your statements in that thread seem reasonable to me.

But I definitely think that there was a lot of disproportionate hostility over DRGIII's and the editor's creative decisions, and I don't blame him for not wanting to put up with it.
Thank you, Sci. My Neutral Zone comment above was meant more along the lines of, "If DRG thinks Trek Lit folks are harsh, it could be infinitely worse..." They eat their young over there.

Haven't checked that NZ thread lately. They could be consuming me over there as well, now...
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Old February 7 2011, 11:37 PM   #265
flemm
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
Dude, he was being accused of perpetuating stereotypes about black men as deadbeat dads,...
The novel certainly deserves to be scrutinized from that point of view. I don't know what was being said in TNZ, but I've read the thread here, and no one's remarks were out of line.

I gather it was unintentional, but Sisko is portrayed as a neglectful parent in RBoE. While one can certainly debate the merits of Sisko's reasons for divorcing Kasidy, there doesn't appear to be any serious justification at all for Sisko's abandonment of Rebecca. If a divorce or separation is necessary, the father is not absolved of his responsibility toward his children.

So, it may hurt the author's feelings, but it is a legitimate topic for discussion.

Sci wrote: View Post
... and the events of the novel themselves were being twisted and falsely described as "Sisko abandons his family because of a prophecy that any reader of prophecy fiction knows he can't avoid anyway." People weren't just criticizing his work, they were attacking it, and now they're attacking him for choosing not to put up with it.
The interpretation of the prophecy that fuels the narrative of RBoE is hardly above criticism. On the contrary, it is something of a stretch to deduce from the Prophet's original words that Sisko would be able to nullify the consequences of his choice to marry Kasidy four years after the fact. Debating this point does not constitute an "attack" in any way, shape or form.

Sci wrote: View Post
So I frankly wouldn't be too surprised if this was merely the straw the broke the camel's back.
That certainly may be so, I have no idea. Since nothing that has been said here about RBoE strikes me as objectionable in the slightest, you are probably right that it is more a case of cumulative frustration.
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Old February 8 2011, 02:17 AM   #266
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

It's not just this thread, but others where authors are being accused purposely churning out crap just to annoy narcissists with ridiculously high standards or just being in it for the money. If that's not making it personal, I don't know what is.
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Old February 8 2011, 03:38 AM   #267
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^Oh, believe me, I know what it's like to suffer personal attacks. Believe me...I don't blame DRGIII.
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Old February 8 2011, 05:21 AM   #268
flemm
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Enterprise1981 wrote: View Post
It's not just this thread, but others where authors are being accused purposely churning out crap just to annoy narcissists with ridiculously high standards ...
Can you be more specific? I ask partly because, while I don't sympathize with anyone accusing authors of purposely churning out crap, the "narcissists with ridiculously high standards" portion of your post sounds like an ad hominem attack of your own. It reminds me a bit of DRGIII taking umbrage at anyone qualifying his work as "absurd" or "ridiculous," while noting in the same post his growing fatigue in dealing with readers possessing "poor reading comprehension."

It is easy to see one's own snarky/negative comments as entirely justified while simultaneously getting offended by remarks made by others that are no more or less insulting.

Last edited by flemm; February 8 2011 at 05:52 AM.
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Old February 8 2011, 06:40 AM   #269
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I can completely understand why DRGIII left the forums. In fact that thought has crossed my mind in the recent past. It's seems like as time has gone on people have just been getting meaner and meaner here. It seems like half of the threads that are popping up lately end up turning into uglier and uglier arguments that aren't even related to the book. And then we've got people ripping on the books, and then getting pissy when the authors try to defend there work. The positive has still been beating out the negatives for me for quite a while, but I can definitely see why someone would get tired of it. Especially when they are the author of some of the stuff being insulted.
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Old February 8 2011, 11:09 AM   #270
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I've not read the novel yet and intend to once I'm finished reading Seize the Fire but wouldn't a decision like Sisko "abandoning his family" be made by editorial while it is the author's job to incorporate that concept into the framework of his story or do we know if that was DRGIII's decision? Seems like it would be a controversial plot point in either case considering the build up of Sisko and Kassidy having Rebecca at the start of the relaunch.
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