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Old December 22 2010, 03:59 AM   #16
Guy Gardener
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Re: Living Witness

Kim tried as hard as he could to make a back up and failed.

Things change.
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Old December 22 2010, 04:48 AM   #17
Anwar
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Re: Living Witness

On-Screen, he tried and failed. Off-screen/between episodes he succeeded and then the one copy he made was lost and they couldn't do it again.
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Old December 22 2010, 06:07 AM   #18
Guy Gardener
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Re: Living Witness

What part of "things change" did it make it seem that I didn't already say what you just said?

Message in a bottle was half way through season 4.

Besides after they got the 29th century codecs they were easily able to reduce the doctor down to portable size and every thing he claimed about his program being bound to sickbay in eye of the needle was moot.
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Old December 22 2010, 09:47 AM   #19
Timo
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Re: Living Witness

Was there a stardate or such given for when the doctor was borrowed in "Living Witness"?
None. That part of the episode could fit in anywhere between "The Gift" where we get Seven and lose Kes, and "Homestead" where we lose Neelix, especially considering that it's an inaccurate description of the events.

They built a backup for the Doc, and then lost the one backup they were able to build to the Kyrians and couldn't make another.
The one implausible thing about this is the idea that they'd lose the ability to make further backups. That makes no sense: they were never short on spares in the final seasons, always finding friendly suppliers if they just kept on looking long and hard enough. And the EMH program got more and more adept at jumping from hardware to hardware as time passed, thus probably becoming easier rather than harder to back up. Why would they lose the ability to make backups?

"Critical Care" establishes that our heroes (still) lack the ability in early Season 7, unless we're to interpret the episode so that the thief accidentally destroyed our heroes' EMH backups when stealing the original. (He wouldn't have deliberately destroyed them, as he wanted to hide the theft.)

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Old December 22 2010, 10:15 AM   #20
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Re: Living Witness

I have a darker thought.

What if all the other backups, were also stolen and put to task?

And even if they didn't steal the back ups, they could have made their own back ups by the thousand and the tens of thousand...

Are we positive that Voyager rescued them too?

And what would Janeway do with a spare 10,000 EMH mark1's? Except cull them, since destroying (it's not murder if they're not sentient.) the technology is more moral them letting a savage child race exploit itself with stolen Federation (implying culpability) technology that they were weeks away from using the EMH as a template for Holographic paratroopers who were going to crusade rape and pillage (In olden days (Thinking mostly about the Mongols, but others too) rape was a tool of war not enjoyment. It pacified spirits and polluted the genepools of your victims that their children would be more like you then them. Really dark shit. So yes there is a reason the holograms would rape.) across that world and maybe the next few in the sector.

The Module was probably B'Elanna's first (or so) attempt at a mobile emitter using 24th century contemporary hardware, since (logically) it's a violation of the Prime Directive to steal/acquire technology through timetravel.

They're all very bad people.
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Old December 22 2010, 10:40 AM   #21
Timo
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Re: Living Witness

...destroying (it's not murder if they're not sentient)...
More interestingly, the EMH isn't exactly an individual, especially if copied thousandfold. Instead of destroying him, our heroes would have a range of options that wouldn't apply to a live doctor. They could for example merge the inconvenient 10,000 doctors into one; the "averaging process" might amount to losing perhaps 0.003 doctors' worth of identity, as most of the material would be common already between the clones.

(logically) it's a violation of the Prime Directive to steal/acquire technology through timetravel.
Our heroes didn't object to using Borg technology, even though it was for all practical and theoretical purposes "stolen", too. And one might argue it was also acquired through "time travel", because the Borg represent future technologies from the UFP point of view...

In backing up the EMH, I think our heroes would have used any means necessary and justified it as being a life-saving measure for a fellow hero creature.

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Old December 22 2010, 10:54 AM   #22
The_Baron
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Re: Living Witness

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
What part of "things change" did it make it seem that I didn't already say what you just said?

Message in a bottle was half way through season 4.

Besides after they got the 29th century codecs they were easily able to reduce the doctor down to portable size and every thing he claimed about his program being bound to sickbay in eye of the needle was moot.
Something to consider, in Message in a Bottle, the doctor was absent. Harry was trying to build a replacement from scratch.

Once the doc was back aboard, it would likely have been much easier to simply copy the program, and store it, rather than write an entirely new one.
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Old December 22 2010, 11:05 AM   #23
Guy Gardener
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Re: Living Witness

The taboo against accepting gifts form timetravellers is purely a case of self preservation, that in no matter what way you think your are ahead of the game compared to a future person you might as well be a monkey because these gifts come with strings (Ask the Trojans!) and force you to behave in ways that are in benefit to future people above your own no matter how your own limited short-sightedness accesses the playing field that you do not understand how you are being manipulated.

Note how Berlinghoff Rassmussen thought he was running the show but wasn't.

The Borg aren't all that manipulative, and what they have is advanced but native to this timezone and the federation is at war with them according to Nechayev so what they have is booty.

The regular Prime Directive (a novel told me once) stops more powerful races (hopefully if they respect the Federations moral stand) meddling with the federation and the federation meddling with younger races that every one gets to grow up at their own pace without homogenisation and mass replication of identity.

The Temporal Prime Directive does the same thing with time. Cutting down on contamination and pollution. It's all really necessary when you consider how colonization destroyed all the aboriginal and indigenous cultures (eventually) over the last 500 years as whitey went looking for places to dump his religion.

Though not canon, this all should make perfect sense to anyone but the Voyager writing room.
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Old December 22 2010, 11:13 AM   #24
Guy Gardener
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Re: Living Witness

The_Baron wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
What part of "things change" did it make it seem that I didn't already say what you just said?

Message in a bottle was half way through season 4.

Besides after they got the 29th century codecs they were easily able to reduce the doctor down to portable size and every thing he claimed about his program being bound to sickbay in eye of the needle was moot.
Something to consider, in Message in a Bottle, the doctor was absent. Harry was trying to build a replacement from scratch.

Once the doc was back aboard, it would likely have been much easier to simply copy the program, and store it, rather than write an entirely new one.
If at the time they could copy the program, why would they send the original?

And if on back in the aq they could copy the doctor, why wouldn't they copy him before sending him back?

Have you tried to copy a DVD with your home computer?

Patents and copywrites?

maybe these buggers were made in a way that some one didn't want them copied?

Maybe the union lobbyists for the flesh and blood doctors who didn't want to be supplanted and replaced ut their 2 cents forward on this issue? They had to maintain their value by artificially deflating the supply of EMHs and LMHs, otherwise no one would want a doctor that didn't know EVERYTHING and no one would train to be a doctor who no one wanted.

Replacing all Doctors with holograms is a hop skip and a jump to Talos IV country.
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Old December 26 2010, 03:12 AM   #25
Kai Winn
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Re: Living Witness

The_Baron wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
What part of "things change" did it make it seem that I didn't already say what you just said?

Message in a bottle was half way through season 4.

Besides after they got the 29th century codecs they were easily able to reduce the doctor down to portable size and every thing he claimed about his program being bound to sickbay in eye of the needle was moot.
Something to consider, in Message in a Bottle, the doctor was absent. Harry was trying to build a replacement from scratch.

Once the doc was back aboard, it would likely have been much easier to simply copy the program, and store it, rather than write an entirely new one.
so why wasn't he backuped before he left? i think the computer of voyager couldn't handle that much information, the one of ds9 which is probably more advanced than the much smaller voyager's overloaded once when it stored four crewmembers.
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Old December 26 2010, 03:29 AM   #26
Guy Gardener
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Re: Living Witness

That was 50 year old (plus?) Cardassian technology mostly.

The Doctor was positively condescending when he was telling Denora pel how minuscule a dent her personality made in the sickbays holobuffer. How often does one get laid after telling some girl she has pea sized brain?
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Old December 26 2010, 03:46 AM   #27
USS Excelsior
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Re: Living Witness

Actually it's because the Federation was too caught up in the Temporal Cold War to bother with people like that and so far away.
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Old December 26 2010, 03:49 AM   #28
Guy Gardener
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Re: Living Witness

Wow.

The Doctor is Future Guy?

I might have heard that before.
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Old December 27 2010, 12:01 AM   #29
hux
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Re: Living Witness

As interestng as the doctor disscusion is, i'm more interested in why the federation hadn't made contact with the kyrians and vaskans within 700 years time - the argument that the federation only make contact with species they want as members is just plain wrong - as far as i was aware, the critera for contact is being a warp capable species which they were (though this is never officially confirmed, they are both space travelling species even 700 years ago so i think it's fair to make the assumption)

plus, the federaton would be aware of voyagers interaction with them so it would be reasonable for them to make contact again - for me, the only explanation could be that the federaton haven't travelled that far in 700 years which would suggest something nefarious has occurred (though the various time travel episodes would suggest that the federation is alive and well in the 30th century so this seems to contradict that theory)

just seems odd to me that the kyrians and vaskans would not have bumped into the federation in some form or another 700 years on
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Old December 27 2010, 12:51 AM   #30
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Re: Living Witness

It's kinda said in Insurrection when they invited those munchknis who had only had warp travel for a single year.

The federation doesn't want to fuck with younger lesser junior child races. It's just a dick move. They think of you as a god, you think of them as a subspecies who has to be raised up by their bootstraps godwilling whether they want it or not... By degrees and bench marks the federation is going to evolve and become more complex until they finally decide that even merely warp capable species are younger lesser junior child races.

Check the script for the episode episode First contact, not the movie. And I'm sure they said in Bread and Curcuses as well as a Piece of the Action in TOS that they leave the Younger races alone... What about the episode with Nikki Cox?

Consider the English who sailed the world building Empire 3 hundred years ago. If a new civilization of that complexity would suddenly just "found" would the modern day English treat them as equals or as a younger lesser junior child race?

The prime Directive is going to evolve. It has to.

Lets anthropomorphise this bastard in "your" image.

When you were four you made friends with four year olds.

When you were six, you still made friends with four year olds.

When you were 10, 4 year olds were a commodity to be exploited.

When you were 20, 4 year olds were a burden to be looked after.

When you were/will be 35, 4 year olds were/are thank god 95 percent of the time some one elses problem and you will go/went to great lengths to maintain that they are and always willbe someone elses problem.

The older you get the more chance some one is going to mistake you for a paedophile if you keep treating 4 year olds like equals.
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