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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old January 4 2011, 11:08 PM   #76
Therin of Andor
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'll never understand why people get so wrapped up in one person's displeasure.
You seem to have so much "displeasure".
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Old January 4 2011, 11:10 PM   #77
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

Other than a few others, (Spock) Vaughn's one of the few active characters who's lived long enough to bridge the era's from TOS to TNG. I think it's a great idea to use him in a story set in 2300.

Looking forward to reading the book.
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Old January 4 2011, 11:33 PM   #78
kkozoriz1
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

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kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
I can see using Vaughn to give us a different perspective on various events. I don't need him meeting up with everyone at some point. Space is big. Starfleet is big. Everyone doesn't know everyone.
That's true. But it's also true that Vaughn has lived a very long time. That was the whole idea behind the character in the first place -- that he's been around so long that it's plausible that he's encountered many other prominent characters at least once. If he were only 30 years old but had happened to run into all these different familiar people within the past five years, then you'd be right to call it a contrived coincidence. But he is over 100 years old, so that even if he only encountered a prominent Trek-universe character once every few years of his life, it would still cumulatively add up to a lot of crossovers.

I mean, really, it's a lot less coincidental than a lot of stuff in the shows themselves. Picard is the first captain to encounter the Romulans on their return to galactic affairs and the first human chosen as a Borg spokesman and the only human ever to be the Klingon Arbiter of Succession? It's a huge contrivance that one person would get involved with all those high-level events in just a few years. Vaughn meeting various familiar people over the course of decades is far more believable.
He can be IN a story without meeting up with the familiar characters. Have him involved in a parallel plot. One of these days I should sit down and make a list of the characters (from the shows) that he hasn't met up with yet.
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Old January 4 2011, 11:39 PM   #79
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
He can be IN a story without meeting up with the familiar characters. Have him involved in a parallel plot.
To a person reading their very first Star Trek novel - and for every ST book, it is someone's first one - a total stranger named Vaughn in a parallel plot to the main action would be seen as nothing more than filler.
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Old January 4 2011, 11:42 PM   #80
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I'll never understand why people get so wrapped up in one person's displeasure.
You seem to have so much "displeasure".
Has to be someone to balance out your "everything's rosey" demeanor.

Seriously though... there is just a "been there, done that" feeling to TrekLit lately and part of that is the constant appearance's by minor characters, over and over, across the many lines.
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Old January 4 2011, 11:42 PM   #81
kkozoriz1
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

And when they read their next novel and he's not in there?

What if they read another one and he is a main character and they go Ah-ha! It's the same guy from 60 years ago! Neat!
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Old January 4 2011, 11:49 PM   #82
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
He can be IN a story without meeting up with the familiar characters. Have him involved in a parallel plot.
But where's the fun in that? And really, it's not that unrealistic that someone who's been prominent in an organization for 80 years would've met quite a few of its other prominent members.

One of these days I should sit down and make a list of the characters (from the shows) that he hasn't met up with yet.
Which would surely outnumber those he has met, and thus prove my point that, statistically speaking, the number of meet-ups involving Vaughn and a canonical character is not excessive or improbable. Although to be fair, it should be limited to characters encountered before the "present" timeframe of the books, because we know he's met pretty much the whole TNG crew (The Battle of Betazed) and most of the DS9 cast.

You might be interested to know, by the way, that I considered giving Vaughn a cameo in The Buried Age, but Marco nixed it, thinking he didn't want to overdo Vaughn's appearances. (I think. The memory's a little fuzzy that far back.) So it's not like anyone's going out of their way to cram him in everywhere. Vaughn is included in a story when there's a good story reason to do so.
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Old January 4 2011, 11:56 PM   #83
kkozoriz1
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

Well, different strokes.

I feel the same way about Uhura and Chekov not only still being alive but on active duty in the 24th century. It feels like a gimmick.
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Old January 5 2011, 12:06 AM   #84
Therin of Andor
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
What if they read another one and he is a main character and they go Ah-ha! It's the same guy from 60 years ago! Neat!
No, they'd say, "This must be the loneliest guy in Starfleet. Never interacts with anyone we know, only allowed to participate in parallel plots. Why is he even here?"
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Old January 5 2011, 12:15 AM   #85
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

Mot at all. If he were a main character (i.e. DS9-R) then sure he'll meet people. But he doesn't have to meet up with everyone in the past as well.

I like my universes large. I don't need someone stitching every piece together for me.
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Old January 5 2011, 12:19 AM   #86
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

^ What other fictional universe, ever, is the size of this one?
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Old January 5 2011, 12:19 AM   #87
Therin of Andor
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
I like my universes large.
The larger the universe, in order to be more believable for you, the less commercially viable. Tie-ins rely on recognizable figures featuring in the main action.
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Old January 5 2011, 12:21 AM   #88
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
I like my universes large.
The larger the universe, in order to be more believable for you, the less commercially viable. Tie-ins rely on recognizable figures featuring in the main action.
But is Elias Vaughn isn't recognizable to anyone outside of TrekLit.
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Old January 5 2011, 12:23 AM   #89
kkozoriz1
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

Thrawn wrote: View Post
^ What other fictional universe, ever, is the size of this one?
Comic universes are as big or bigger.

Perry Rodan is huge.
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Old January 5 2011, 12:27 AM   #90
Thrawn
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Re: New Catalog covers and info- cover/info not final

And while we're at it, it's not really even hard to believe, statistically speaking.

Last year, I finished up a certification in math instruction in Los Angeles, and the class I was taking had a presentation from someone who, from being a student in LA Unified School District and all the way up for the last 30 years, has worked in the organization. She gave a history of the entire LAUSD, the largest school district in the country. And the whole point of her presentation was that it was basically the same 5 or 6 people that had charted the entire course; they kept showing up, as consultants, as principals, superintendents, on the school board, as politicians, etc.

Now, I know that LAUSD is one organization in one city, but it's a HUGE one. And if 5 or 6 people end up knowing absolutely everyone that matters, and making most of the important decisions, how implausible is it that out of a cast of something like (conservatively) 100-150 present-day main characters and probably twice as many minors (including Valeris, for instance), that a lot of them have met each other?

People get probabilities wrong. You only need 23 people in a room for there to be a greater than 50% chance that two of them have the same birthday. Out of 365 possibilities, you only need 23 for the odds to be more than half you've chosen the same one. Out of that many main characters, the odds that some have met has got to have similar properties.
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