RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 147,736
Posts: 5,843,294
Members: 26,187
Currently online: 438
Newest member: firstresident

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Non Sequitur
By: Michelle Erica Green on Sep 4

Two The Next Generation Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Sep 4

September-October 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 4

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Sep 3

Star Trek Night At Fenway Park
By: T'Bonz on Sep 3

New Star Trek Merchandise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 2

Perth Mint Voyager Coins
By: T'Bonz on Sep 1

Face Off To Feature Trek Makeup
By: T'Bonz on Sep 1

Pegg Omaze Video Features Outtakes
By: T'Bonz on Sep 1

Vulcan Ale – The Genesis Effect
By: T'Bonz on Aug 31


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 15 2010, 05:35 AM   #1
commodore64
Vice Admiral
 
commodore64's Avatar
 
Location: Communist Portland
Real life fraternization

In the Navy, two commanding officers (a CO and an XO) were fired for fraternization. Both officers were Lt. Commanders working on the same ship.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/1...fired-120910w/

During the discussion, the CO indicated he didn't have a sexual relationship with the XO. And in the discussion, it seems things like including invitations to one because you're more friendly with that person could be considered fraternization.

I think that brings back an age old question with a new lens. What would've really happened with Archer/T'Pol and/or T'Pol/Trip (whichever you believe you'd like to answer for in whichever respect).
__________________
Thanks, HR!
commodore64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15 2010, 04:56 PM   #2
JiNX-01
Admiral
 
JiNX-01's Avatar
 
Location: JiNX-01
View JiNX-01's Twitter Profile
Re: Real life fraternization

This would be a good subject for general trek.

Trip/T'Pol
Archer/T'Pol
Troi/Riker
Troi/Worf
Picard/Crusher
Commander Data/Lt. Yar
Commander Data/Lt. Jenna D'Sora
Lt. Paris & Ensign Kim and the Delaney sisters
Lt. Paris and Lt. B'Elanna Torres
Commander Scott/Lt. Mira Romaine
Lt. Tomlinson/Spec. 2nd class Angela Martine
eta:
Missed a couple:
Worf/Jadzia
Bashier/Ezri

Last edited by JiNX-01; December 15 2010 at 06:41 PM.
JiNX-01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2010, 06:13 AM   #3
commodore64
Vice Admiral
 
commodore64's Avatar
 
Location: Communist Portland
Re: Real life fraternization

Hmm, good idea. But, I think because this comes up a lot, I'm especially interested in how we (err, the general Enterprise community) feels.
__________________
Thanks, HR!
commodore64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2010, 06:28 AM   #4
star
Vice Admiral
 
star's Avatar
 
Location: Back in the land of Lurkdom
Re: Real life fraternization

From Breaking the Ice:

Here's one from Geoff Miles. 'Is dating allowed on Enterprise?' Well, it's not discouraged, but there isn't a lot of privacy on a starship. Most of our crew share quarters with at least one other person, so it wouldn't exactly be practical. But if two crewmembers decide that they really like each other there are a lot of places they can go to look at the stars.
Starfleet is set up sort of like military, but it isn't military. At this time, none of our service men and women serve in unbroken deployments as long as a "five year mission" and certainly not out of our star system.

As a military wife, I totally get the importance of non-fraternization. But frankly, I don't give a damn when it comes to Trek. There's a whole lot of stuff in Trek that bends reality, why should this be any different?
__________________
(We are an equal opportunity ENT fanservice)
star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2010, 07:38 AM   #5
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Ferguson, Missouri, USA
Re: Real life fraternization

Starfleet is a different beast from today's navies in that area, IMO. Starfleet's policy regarding fraternization seems to be "as long as it doesn't interfere with a mission, it's none of our business." To that extent, Starfleet likely doesn't have any beef with fraternization between officers and enlisted...
__________________
"Don't sweat the small stuff--it makes you small-minded..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2010, 07:39 AM   #6
Nick Ryder
Fleet Captain
 
Nick Ryder's Avatar
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI Da Brew City
Re: Real life fraternization

Well I suppose Starfleet can look the other way with intercrew fraternization when basically it's a very small unit - I mean think about it, when the US Military talks about sending another say 5,000 troops to the middle east and that's considered a 'small' deployment - and the average Trek ship can range between 100 crew members to 2000 - and when you factor in ships like the Enterprise-D which encouraged families, basically said 'hey as long as you are proven to not be giving your special someone extra privilages and you're willing to send 'em off to die a horrible death, there's no worries.'

Although honestly Janeway/Chakotay was just wrong, simply because in the COC they are hardly 'equals'. Now if it was say Janeway and some other Maquis who technically really wasn't part of the crew... maaaaaaaybe. Or someone that while technically everyone is under her command, a lower ranked officer who reported to another department head wouldn't be nearly as bad I guess. But it's a sticky situation.

But then again... when you've got a very small crew, and they all spend a lot of time together, and they're pretty damned far away from others... it's kinda likely that it'll happen somehow.

In Trek though... it's kind of hard, on one hand, it makes sense that they would discourage and even ban that kind of fraternization. Too easy for emotions to get in the way. What if say, Janeway and Chakotay did hook up, then Janeway got pissed at him? Maybe Seven shook her curvy ass too close to him, he got a woody and then she goes 'Commander, go down to that planet. You don't need to bring a big compliment, they seem peaceful. Just take Seven and Harry Kim.'. He comes back in a box. Gee...
__________________
"Here you are in the club with your bottle full of Bud, you got grillz you got bling, but playa you don't know a thing..." Alice Cooper - Disco Bloodbath Boogie Fever
Nick Ryder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2010, 02:07 PM   #7
Mach5
Rear Admiral
 
Mach5's Avatar
 
Location: We're home!
Re: Real life fraternization

__________________
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
― Bertrand Russell
Mach5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2010, 08:19 PM   #8
HopefulRomantic
Phloxist moderator
 
HopefulRomantic's Avatar
 
Location: feeding the cats again
Re: Real life fraternization

Mach5, I notice you seem to be enamored with dropping thread bombs without adding anything substantive to a discussion. Give the spamming a rest, okay? Thanks.
__________________
"It's late, I'm tired, and there's so much left to do." ~Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Diamonds Are Forever
HopefulRomantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22 2010, 05:34 AM   #9
commodore64
Vice Admiral
 
commodore64's Avatar
 
Location: Communist Portland
Re: Real life fraternization

Nick Ryder, North Star and Jinx - yeah. I thought what was interesting (if one were to read the report) was that sex doesn't have to be involved for people to be considered fraternizing. And I also thought, "If they're on a ship - they spend a lot of time together in small circles." I would guess it would make fraternization easier and also make the ramifications, even non-sexual, more problematic.

For example, one might say that Archer and Trip were fraternizing. Trip got some preferential treatment, especially in seasons 1 and 2. Strictly by the book, it seems Reed could've filed charges.
__________________
Thanks, HR!
commodore64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22 2010, 07:25 PM   #10
JiNX-01
Admiral
 
JiNX-01's Avatar
 
Location: JiNX-01
View JiNX-01's Twitter Profile
Re: Real life fraternization

OK. I did read the article in its entirety.

Based on my initial post here it seems perfectly obvious to me that the producers and writers from Gene Roddenberry to the present do not view Starfleet as a strictly military organization. There were kids on ENT-D.

Quasi-military, perhaps, seeing as how Kirk was court martialed for killing a crewman who was NOT. DEAD. And Spock was court martialed for kidnapping Pike and heading for Talos IV. But those investigations involved, in Kirk's case alleged criminal negligence (and let us not forget that Kirk's prosecutor was once romantically involved with him). In Spock's case actual criminal behavior was at issue for which he was forgiven by SFC, an unlikely outcome if SF was a truly military organization.

I stand by my original post.

commodore64 wrote: View Post
For example, one might say that Archer and Trip were fraternizing. Trip got some preferential treatment, especially in seasons 1 and 2. Strictly by the book, it seems Reed could've filed charges.
Please specify the preferential treatment Trip received. I've seen this allegation raised elsewhere around here, but no one has provided a list of these purported perks.

Last edited by JiNX-01; December 22 2010 at 07:38 PM.
JiNX-01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22 2010, 07:33 PM   #11
Count Zero
Decidedly something
 
Count Zero's Avatar
 
Location: Land of Awesome
Re: Real life fraternization

Not all militaries operate by the same rules. The US military seems to have rather strict fraternisation rules while other armies doe not. For example, in the German army you're fine as long as it doesn't interfere with your duties and doesn't involve a comrade's girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband/civil-union'ed partner. It looks as if Starfleet has a similar policy.
__________________
"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
Count Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2010, 08:27 PM   #12
Marten
Captain
 
Location: Southern Sweden
Re: Real life fraternization

In Lessons Picard stated that dating between officers was allowd, didn't he?
Marten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2010, 03:06 PM   #13
Aquarius
Commander
 
Aquarius's Avatar
 
Location: Detroit
View Aquarius's Twitter Profile
Re: Real life fraternization

In my ST "world view", Starfleet's stance on the fraternization is more like NASA's than the military.

A year or two ago, I'd been watching a program called "The Universe" on Discovery or one of those channels, and one of their shows was "Sex in Space"--they covered everything from how-to in microgravity, to the effect of weightlessness on a developing fetus, to the effects of deep space travel on interpersonal relationships.

One of the interesting things they brought up was how a space shuttle mission had almost been scrubbed because two of the astronauts had fallen in love and gotten married through the course of training for their mission. Of course in the public view NASA played itself off as being supportive, but the reality is, the couple in question were on the receiving end of a lot of grief. The newlyweds pointed to the fact that there were no rules against getting married or even having a relationship--much like our theoretical Enterprise situation.

NASA's response: "You're (the astronaut corps) the best of the best. You're supposed to know better."

So, if Archer/T'Pol or Trip/T'Pol hooked up, I'm sure they'd face much the same thing from Starfleet Command, despite the absence of regulations directly prohibiting it.

Now, of course, by the time Kirk's crew rolls around, this is obviously not the case, as we see the captain performing a wedding in "Balance of Terror"--Starfleet likely would've found some enlightenment over the next 100 years, learning that you can't send people away for years at a time and expect them to ignore the fact that intimacy is a basic human need, as many of the experts on the "Sex in Space" show were saying. It just isn't doable. Even if you send all men or all women, that doesn't eliminate sex and relationships from happening--just look at the prison system for confirmation of this.

In Lessons Picard stated that dating between officers was allowd, didn't he?
That's a couple of centuries after Archer's time. That's plenty of time for any bureaucracy to rethink its regulations and attitudes.
__________________
Everything Changes in the Expanse: www.thedelphicexpanse.com All Enterprise. All the Time.
Aquarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30 2010, 04:20 AM   #14
commodore64
Vice Admiral
 
commodore64's Avatar
 
Location: Communist Portland
Re: Real life fraternization

Nice comments, everyone! Interesting about the German military and also good comments about NASA and hook ups. I remember about two months ago there was a lot "made" about sex in space.

Please specify the preferential treatment Trip received. I've seen this allegation raised elsewhere around here, but no one has provided a list of these purported perks.
Well, I don't mean it like, "Archer lets Trip get away with murder." It's more like it feels Archer is friendlier with Trip - they hang out together more and not just as officers. They watch water polo (Trip is a good friend) together, drink together, etc. It seemed based on the article the military sees that "hanging out together" with one crewmen more than another as fraternization. That would mean that Trip and T'Pol's neuropressure sessions were strictly considered fraternization, too. I think it also means that Trip and Reed's friendship is fraternization.

I agree with everyone here - I don't see Starfleet as a military organization. I see them as a quasi-military organization. I also don't see how you can't be better friends with some people more than others. There's chemistry (sense of humor, personal interests, etc.) that click with some people and just don't with others.
__________________
Thanks, HR!
commodore64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.