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Old April 12 2013, 03:19 AM   #2176
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Plus its not that surprising TIM might go for controlling the Reapers I mean in the first game Cerberus was trying to control Rachni and Thorian Creepers as part of a slave army, and in Mass Effect 2 they tried making a VI god to control the Geth, and had in the past tried to create a super biotic, as well as TIM seeing the Collector base as a means to allow humanity to not only defeat the Reapers but any other races he sees as threats.

So it look obvious that he is after anything that gives humanity an edge over the other races so why wouldn't he try to go for the ultimate one and control the most advanced race in the universe. Especially since if he succeeds no one could oppose Cerberus or humanity.
The problem with that point Hart is that most of those attempts to control something WERE COMPLETE FAILURES. Sovereign was able to control the Geth without anyone knowing and was able to launch an assault against the whole galaxy. Cerberus' attempt at controlling the Geth with a VI was not only a failure, it killed all but two people in a densely populated science station. The VI also would have caused more damage had it broken free. EDI herself managed to no longer follow Cerberus' commands, and even the collector base didn't amount to jack in the end. And depending on your play, he wasn't able to control Shepard either.

So why should TIM, who's writers declare that his intelligence is his weapon, think that he'll have more luck controlling the Reapers when he couldn't even control the GETH? Again, the same synthetics that the Reapers themselves were able to control and manipulate with ease. His motivations are like a fourth grader who keeps failing his math classes and decides he's going to tackle integral calculus instead.
Hell, even Joker was -- ahem -- joking about that in the Citadel DLC. Years ago, before anyone knew anything about them, Cerberus tried to create a superbiotic by torturing a small but talented child; that child got loose and killed all their guys. A few years later, Cerberus tried to make an army of Thorian Creepers; they got loose and killed all their guys. Then they tried to create an army of Rachni; they got loose and killed all their guys. They tried to experiment on Thresher Maws, which got loose and killed all their guys. A few years later they experimented on a Geth-controlling VI, which got loose and killed all their guys. Around that same time they resurrected Shepard, who became disillusioned with their methods, got loose, and killed all their guys. Shepard was aided by EDI, a powerful AI construct who later got loose and killed all their guys. On Omega, they were experimenting with adjutants, who also got loose and killed a lot (but not all) of their guys.

The Illusive Man's whole resume has been a litany of futile attempts to control things that he barely understands on the assumption that they will somehow, someway, become more of an asset than a liability. That's the entire idea behind Cerberus: they cruise around the universe playing with every kind of fire they can find on the assumption that sooner or later they'll figure out how to control it properly. Their attempts to control the reapers would have been equally futile; even if they had any early success, it would only be a matter of time before the Reapers got loose and killed all their guys.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:33 AM   #2177
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Reverend wrote: View Post
So why should TIM, who's writers declare that his intelligence is his weapon, think that he'll have more luck controlling the Reapers when he couldn't even control the GETH? Again, the same synthetics that the Reapers themselves were able to control and manipulate with ease. His motivations are like a fourth grader who keeps failing his math classes and decides he's going to tackle integral calculus instead.
Why? Because he's indoctrinated of course.
Plus lets be honest the man was arrogant as hell. It probably seemed inconceivable to him that his plans could blow up in his face like that.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Plus its not that surprising TIM might go for controlling the Reapers I mean in the first game Cerberus was trying to control Rachni and Thorian Creepers as part of a slave army, and in Mass Effect 2 they tried making a VI god to control the Geth, and had in the past tried to create a super biotic, as well as TIM seeing the Collector base as a means to allow humanity to not only defeat the Reapers but any other races he sees as threats.

So it look obvious that he is after anything that gives humanity an edge over the other races so why wouldn't he try to go for the ultimate one and control the most advanced race in the universe. Especially since if he succeeds no one could oppose Cerberus or humanity.
The problem with that point Hart is that most of those attempts to control something WERE COMPLETE FAILURES. Sovereign was able to control the Geth without anyone knowing and was able to launch an assault against the whole galaxy. Cerberus' attempt at controlling the Geth with a VI was not only a failure, it killed all but two people in a densely populated science station. The VI also would have caused more damage had it broken free. EDI herself managed to no longer follow Cerberus' commands, and even the collector base didn't amount to jack in the end. And depending on your play, he wasn't able to control Shepard either.

So why should TIM, who's writers declare that his intelligence is his weapon, think that he'll have more luck controlling the Reapers when he couldn't even control the GETH? Again, the same synthetics that the Reapers themselves were able to control and manipulate with ease. His motivations are like a fourth grader who keeps failing his math classes and decides he's going to tackle integral calculus instead.
Hell, even Joker was -- ahem -- joking about that in the Citadel DLC. Years ago, before anyone knew anything about them, Cerberus tried to create a superbiotic by torturing a small but talented child; that child got loose and killed all their guys. A few years later, Cerberus tried to make an army of Thorian Creepers; they got loose and killed all their guys. Then they tried to create an army of Rachni; they got loose and killed all their guys. They tried to experiment on Thresher Maws, which got loose and killed all their guys. A few years later they experimented on a Geth-controlling VI, which got loose and killed all their guys. Around that same time they resurrected Shepard, who became disillusioned with their methods, got loose, and killed all their guys. Shepard was aided by EDI, a powerful AI construct who later got loose and killed all their guys. On Omega, they were experimenting with adjutants, who also got loose and killed a lot (but not all) of their guys.

The Illusive Man's whole resume has been a litany of futile attempts to control things that he barely understands on the assumption that they will somehow, someway, become more of an asset than a liability. That's the entire idea behind Cerberus: they cruise around the universe playing with every kind of fire they can find on the assumption that sooner or later they'll figure out how to control it properly. Their attempts to control the reapers would have been equally futile; even if they had any early success, it would only be a matter of time before the Reapers got loose and killed all their guys.
In fact Hackett even lampshades this during one of the conversation you have with him.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:56 PM   #2178
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I think the way TIM rationalizes most of these disasters is that a few dozen deaths are acceptable losses so long as they get viable data from the experiment. Even if that data amounts to little more than: "well *that* doesn't work!"

For the record though, I'm pretty sure it was only the Overlord project that had the subject breaking loose and killing all their guys. IIRC of the colonies and outposts you come across infested with husks, rachni and creepers, only the two former were the work of Cerberus and even then it wasn't their facilities. With the husks they were deliberately infecting an isolated population to see what happened and I'm pretty sure the outposts attacked by rachni were alliance military. Not sure if that was even deliberate or the result of a shipping error.

As for the creepers, those were shipped off world by exogenii and infested an outpost. The only time you see Cerberus with creepers is when you wipe out their main base, in which are indeed husks, creepers & rachni, but they were all contained and the base personnel alive and well...until you kill them all.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:28 PM   #2179
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Looking at things from TIM's perspective, he had two choices if he wanted to stop the Reapers. He could work with the Alliance on the Crucible project, but nobody knows what that is or how it works. It could backfire, or just plain not work at all. It's a galactic Hail Mary born out of desperation with absolutely no guarantee of success. Meanwhile, Henry Lawson's lab is achieving promising results in controlling Reaper tech, and given more time there is a chance that they can scale that up to take control of actual Reapers. It's a desperate hope too, but at least there's actual science going into the project and not wishes and prayers. Knowing what TIM knows, it makes sense that he would pursue the option of control.

So why is he trying to block Shepard and the Alliance? Because he's trying to buy time. Cerberus has a target on their back due to their role in taking down the Collector base, but by disrupting Shepard's plans Cerberus are making themselves useful to the Reapers, thereby putting off their inevitable annihilation. TIM is hoping that he can buy Cerberus enough time to develop a way to control the Reapers.

At least, that's how TIM sees his actions. The truth is that he's slowly being indoctrinated and that's affecting his judgement. In the end, he runs out of time not because the Reapers ran out of targets and focused on Cerberus, but because the indoctrination overcame him.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:34 PM   #2180
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Reverend wrote: View Post
Why? Because he's indoctrinated of course.
Yeah, that plot twist did wonders for the story and for his character.

TIM is the villain? Nope. He's just a puppet controlled by the Reapers. So the Reapers are the real villains? Nope. They're just puppets being controlled by the Starchild. So the Starchild is the real villain? Nope. He's just some magical god being who kills us with synthetics so we don't get killed by synthetics. So synthetics are the real villains? Nope. Because we can go synthesis on everyone and we can all live happily ever after. Of course, that won't stop synthetics from creating more synthetics that, according to the starchild, will undoubtedly turn on all of us and kill every form of life in the galaxy.

I'm sure this was all covered in book 4.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:58 PM   #2181
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Jeyl wrote: View Post
So the Starchild is the real villain? Nope. He's just some magical god being...
He's not a god being, he's a very naughty AI. The Extended Cut and Leviathan DLCs are very clear on this.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:12 PM   #2182
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Re: Mass Effect 3

When you get right down to it, there really aren't any big "villains" in Mass Effect. Antagonists, sure, but nobody is doing anything terrible just for the sake of being evil or even for self interest. And I'm fine with that.

Saren may have been a dangerous arsehole even before he was a reaper puppet, but most of what he does is for the greater good as he sees it. Same goes for Benezia, the Shadow Broker and TIM, more or less. The Collectors were just highly developed husks under reaper control. The Reapers themselves are little more than tools and extensions of the catalyst, which is just fulfilling it's function in the best way it knows how. Even the Leviathans that created it were acting out of concern for their thralls and were simply the victims of their own hubris.

Actually, the closest thing the game has to a villain is Wreave, and he's technically an ally!
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Old April 12 2013, 06:30 PM   #2183
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Mass Effect 3

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Looking at things from TIM's perspective, he had two choices if he wanted to stop the Reapers. He could work with the Alliance on the Crucible project, but nobody knows what that is or how it works. It could backfire, or just plain not work at all. It's a galactic Hail Mary born out of desperation with absolutely no guarantee of success. Meanwhile, Henry Lawson's lab is achieving promising results in controlling Reaper tech, and given more time there is a chance that they can scale that up to take control of actual Reapers. It's a desperate hope too, but at least there's actual science going into the project and not wishes and prayers. Knowing what TIM knows, it makes sense that he would pursue the option of control.
Plus TIM seems to be looking beyond the war with the Reapers and how useful control of their technology would be to securing human dominance of the galaxy, so thats another reason controlling them probably appealed to him, heck thats probably the tract the Reapers used while indoctrinating him.
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Old April 15 2013, 09:11 PM   #2184
Jeyl
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Plus TIM seems to be looking beyond the war with the Reapers and how useful control of their technology would be to securing human dominance of the galaxy, so thats another reason controlling them probably appealed to him, heck thats probably the tract the Reapers used while indoctrinating him.
Does anybody remember the dead Reaper in Mass Effect 2? The one that was technically "dead"? That dead Reaper was able to indoctrinate all of the Ceberus scientists and turn them into husks. And TIM decides for no freaking reason that his next step should be to control the Reapers. No plan, no strategy, no anything. That's his plan and he's going for it. He's declared war on the whole galaxy to control something that is killing his science teams and soldiers in masse because... he wants to?

The Mass Effect artbook detailed TIM to be an endgame boss fight. It was scrapped because they wanted TIM's "intelligence" to be his weapon, not his strength. How the heck does TIM have Intelligence if he's indoctrinated and has stupid goals?
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Old April 15 2013, 09:26 PM   #2185
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Plus TIM seems to be looking beyond the war with the Reapers and how useful control of their technology would be to securing human dominance of the galaxy, so thats another reason controlling them probably appealed to him, heck thats probably the tract the Reapers used while indoctrinating him.
Does anybody remember the dead Reaper in Mass Effect 2? The one that was technically "dead"? That dead Reaper was able to indoctrinate all of the Ceberus scientists and turn them into husks. And TIM decides for no freaking reason that his next step should be to control the Reapers. No plan, no strategy, no anything. That's his plan and he's going for it. He's declared war on the whole galaxy to control something that is killing his science teams and soldiers in masse because... he wants to?
As opposed to wanting control of the Collector base which BUILDS Reapers which could also have tech for indoctrination as a fail safe.
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Old April 16 2013, 01:47 PM   #2186
Jeyl
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
As opposed to wanting control of the Collector base which BUILDS Reapers which could also have tech for indoctrination as a fail safe.
Again, if you read how I would have handled it, the Collector Base was a ruse by TIM, not a goal.

And honestly, that Human Reaper is probably the third most retarded thing in the whole Mass Effect series.
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Old April 16 2013, 01:57 PM   #2187
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
As opposed to wanting control of the Collector base which BUILDS Reapers which could also have tech for indoctrination as a fail safe.
Again, if you read how I would have handled it, the Collector Base was a ruse by TIM, not a goal.
I don't care how you would have done it. I care how it was done.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:59 PM   #2188
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Re: Mass Effect 3

So... aside from bitching over and over about the endings...

I've been playing quite a bit of the multiplayer recently, and can I just say how incredibly fun - and very easy - it is to run a Vorcha Sentinel or Geth Juggernaut?

Step 1: toss cluster grenade in midst of enemy mob
Step 2: wade into shortish distance of enemy mob
Step 3: toggle Flamer to "on"
Step 4: cackle madly as your enemies burst into flames

or

Step 1: wade into shortish distance of enemy mob
Step 2: fire away with Geth Shotgun until shields are down
Step 3: play vampire with heavy melee
Step 4: as applicable, mock enemy insta-kill maneuvers


Granted I stick to Silver matches, but those characters have been a lot of fun.
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Old April 16 2013, 11:46 PM   #2189
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I unlocked the Turian Saboteur Engineer the other day and I was rather surprised I was the top scorer in every match I played. You'd think relying almost exclusively on sentry turret and sabotage wouldn't accomplish that, and yet...

Can't wait to reach ME3 on my current single player engineer. The first time I took an engineer through ME3 I guess I didn't realize you could hack Cerberus turrets and even atlases. Going to do insanity for the first time (previously did ME2 insanity on another engineer) so I can take full advantage of my sentry turret, drones, and hacking. Stuff dies too fast on normal for those to ever be of any use. Finished ME3 on my vanguard the other day and while you kill stuff ridiculously fast, man is it ever boring. Charge-nova-charge-nova-charge-nova zzzzzzz.
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Old April 17 2013, 04:22 AM   #2190
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I've definitely found Engineers to be fun, though it's a class I haven't done in single-player yet (probably will be the last actually). But the Quarian Male and N7... err... Grenade-launching-Engineer... have both been a lot of fun. I'm tempted to try the Talon just to see what the Omni-bow is like.
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