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Old December 4 2010, 07:15 PM   #1
John Vasiliou
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I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

They debated heatedly over whether or not to benefit from Crell Moset's research ,because of how he obtained that knowledge.

Yet Seven Of Nine learned basically everything she knew from the assimilation ,and destruction of thousands of races ,and they don't even bat and eye with her helping them out.
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Old December 4 2010, 09:24 PM   #2
froot
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

Yep; I believe the legendary Jim Wright pointed this out as well in his review of this episode.

Voyager uses Borg tech on everything from shuttles to toothbrushes after Seven shows up, which pretty much invalidates the moral message, although it is an episode I still very much enjoy watching.
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Old December 5 2010, 06:07 AM   #3
AuntKate
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

A lot of our medical science is based on actions that we would never tolerate today. If we get picky and refuse to accept any procedure or drug that was based on the pain and suffering of other people or animals, we could just close up our hospitals and start using leeches again.
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Old December 5 2010, 06:29 AM   #4
henbane
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

Exactly AuntKate - I recall conducting double blind trials on humans in the 80's that would never get approval now from an Ethics Committee. We change.

froot - you're right - over the years many have picked up this inconsistency. Good episode though.
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Old December 5 2010, 06:33 AM   #5
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

Additionally, if we fail to use the -beneficial- knowledge gained from, for instance, Nazi research, doesn't that render the sacrifices of the victims even more meaningless? Would we really say we shouldn't use a cure for cancer because of how the knowledge was gained, provided that applying the cure wouldn't cause further suffering?

Obviously I'm not endorsing -further- research that utilizes any sort of brutality.

If I was going to die anyway, I'd like to think I'd allow doctors to use any tangible benefits they could get from my death to help others.

Of course, in "Nothing Human" it makes even less sense because we're talking about a hologram of Moset, not the actual person.
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Old December 5 2010, 06:48 AM   #6
froot
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

DonIago wrote: View Post
Additionally, if we fail to use the -beneficial- knowledge gained from, for instance, Nazi research, doesn't that render the sacrifices of the victims even more meaningless? Would we really say we shouldn't use a cure for cancer because of how the knowledge was gained, provided that applying the cure wouldn't cause further suffering?

Obviously I'm not endorsing -further- research that utilizes any sort of brutality.

If I was going to die anyway, I'd like to think I'd allow doctors to use any tangible benefits they could get from my death to help others.

Of course, in "Nothing Human" it makes even less sense because we're talking about a hologram of Moset, not the actual person.
Aye, I agree. It would have been a real mistake for them not to use holo-Moset to save B'Elanna's life. B'Elanna and the others were upset because the grudge was personal, and that was understandable. But they did the right thing in the end, IMO.

I just meant the whole moral conundrum they were attempting to cook up fell flat due to the Borg oversight.
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Old December 5 2010, 07:20 AM   #7
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

The Borg oversight is one of many reasons it fell flat.
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Old December 5 2010, 07:45 AM   #8
Merry Christmas
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

John Vasiliou wrote: View Post
Yet Seven Of Nine learned basically everything she knew from the assimilation ,and destruction of thousands of races ,and they don't even bat and eye with her helping them out.
Makes you wonder if post-BoBW Picard would have been as a eager to accept Seven's help (given the ultimate source), as was Janeway.

Picard's ethics were never as adaptable as Janeway's.
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Old December 5 2010, 09:59 AM   #9
froot
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
John Vasiliou wrote: View Post
Yet Seven Of Nine learned basically everything she knew from the assimilation ,and destruction of thousands of races ,and they don't even bat and eye with her helping them out.
Makes you wonder if post-BoBW Picard would have been as a eager to accept Seven's help (given the ultimate source), as was Janeway.

Picard's ethics were never as adaptable as Janeway's.
If Picard had Seven on his ship and she had knowledge that could help 'em out, I don't think he'd turn down the opportunity. She's a fount of incredible knowledge wrapped in a glittery sausage casing and a member of the crew besides. Is she supposed to just sit on her hands the whole trip and keep her mouth shut because of her past?

I'm sure post-BoBW Picard would certainly bat an eye or two and have a fair amount of angst, but if Nothing Human teaches anything, it's that it can be impractical and not very useful to suppress knowledge even if it originally came from a bad source. How can it simply be discarded if it proves useful? Picard would have a difficult time accepting Seven, but I think he would eventually, and he'd want her input if it meant everyone's continued survival. He's a practical guy.
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Old December 5 2010, 10:19 AM   #10
henbane
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

Agree froot - and Picard having been a Borg himself, would certainly have shared empathy for Seven. Picard was much more of a "StarFleet by the book guy" than Janeway, but I also feel Janeways flexability and Platonic ethics made her a more interesting character.
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Old December 5 2010, 11:41 AM   #11
Takeru
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

AuntKate wrote: View Post
... , we could just close up our hospitals and start using leeches again.
Start again? They're still used and are very effective.
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Old December 5 2010, 02:37 PM   #12
JanewayRulz!
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

I have a question.

Would anyone have a "problem" with this story line.. if it had occured in season 3?
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Old December 5 2010, 04:17 PM   #13
John Vasiliou
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
I have a question.

Would anyone have a "problem" with this story line.. if it had occured in season 3?
Actually I kind of would because alot of our advances have come from shady means if you really think about it.

It's a sad fact that it happened that way ,but that's the way it is.

Last edited by John Vasiliou; December 5 2010 at 05:09 PM.
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Old December 5 2010, 04:31 PM   #14
Kaziarl
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

change the hologram to look like someone else, problem solved.

As for the ethics, I think the way mosset did his research is deplorable, but as cold as this may sound thats in the past. I can't say with certainty, but I like to think that if I were one of his 'patients' that even if it got bad I'd still want anything that could be learned to help others. This does not mean I agree with his methods, but once the knowledge is out there, why not use it?

Actually, personally, I would feel that burying the information and not using to help people would be an even greater injustice to those that suffered.
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Old December 5 2010, 06:18 PM   #15
JanewayRulz!
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Re: I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human

John Vasiliou wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
I have a question.

Would anyone have a "problem" with this story line.. if it had occured in season 3?
Actually I kind of would because alot of our advances have come from shady means if you really think about it.

It's a sad fact that it happened that way ,but that's the way it is.
Well, to use your original post, I "see a flaw in the logic of your argument".

You argue that because the BORG fight/conquer/assimlate their foes, that anything Seven contributes to Voyager is tainted. Since B'Elanna uses that contribution, she's not allowed to have an opinion that prevents her from being cured using data obtained from despicable means.

Further more, you and others argue that no-one is allowed to have an opinion/practice a philosophy that prevents them from using data obtained by despicable means.

Let's just look at the BORG question, first.

The BORG did not experiment on anyone to obtain their knowledge. They stole the knowledge from other races by assimilation. Something that B'Elanna herself confirmed for us in "Scorpion".


JANEWAY: B'Elanna, it's clear from the Borg database that they know practically nothing about Species 8472.
TORRES: That's right. The Borg gain knowledge through assimilation. What they can't assimilate, they can't understand.

Well, one can argue that assimilation is "despicable"... but as far as the cow is concerned, so is eating a hamburger. Fact is, that's just one of the ways the BORG as a species reproduces and survives... just like that's how McDonalds and Burger King remain profitable.

In fact, the Queen herself has commented on the "benefits" of assmiliation in "Dark Frontier"

SEVEN: Three hundred thousand individuals have been transformed into drones. Should they be congratulated as well?
QUEEN: They should be. They've left behind their trivial, selfish lives and they've been reborn with a greater purpose. We've delivered them from chaos into order.

The BORG never took another humanoid and placed them in an ice water bath and watched their life signs as the temperature dropped, to determine how low was too low before the being died. They never experimented on the humanoid to determine how slow was too slow to rewarm them before the brain experienced catastrophic failure.

The BORG didn't infect humanoids purposefully like the Cardassians did, nor experiment on those infected beings to see what treatment worked "the best".

I understand that you and many of the people posting in this thread see "no problem" with using the data mined from such experiments. What I do not understand is the prevalent opinion that because you/they don't understand how someone can believe in "burying that research", that means the Voyager writer's/story premise is flawed.

"Voyager" isn't the only TV show that has brought this subject up. "The Pretender" in the 1990's also mentioned the Nazi research on Twins, when one of its main characters admitted to being one of the children subjected to such experiments.

Back in the early 1990's I sat through a lecture where the researcher prefaced his remarks by saying the data he was presented WAS obtained from the Nazi experiments on cold stress, and offered to allow people to leave if they could not be a party to such information. Again, you may not understand how anyone can be upset by this data, but they exist, they aren't simply a figment of a Voyager writer's flawed imagination.

As we get further and further from the time of such "despicable" research, its harder for people to put a face and a name to the men and women that suffered such atrocites, whether they be in Tuskeegee, or Germany. I think the mere fact that so many people believe that the problem with "Nothing Human" could be solved by changing the Crell Mossett hologram to look Bajoran suggests that such philosophical issues need to be raised more often.

Who was it that said, killing 1 man is murder, killing a million men is a statistic? In my opinion, whenever the suffering of another human being can be equated with "research on rabbits", our hearts have grown too cold.
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