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Old December 8 2010, 08:14 PM   #76
Anwar
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

That's what happens when you invent an enemy that requires cannon fodder to be sacrificed to them, and then put them in a show with absolutely no cannon fodder.
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Old December 8 2010, 08:28 PM   #77
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Anwar wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
A plan that depends on FIVE maybes is better than a plan that depends on ONE.
I just don't think a "Fire at them and get them to chase us close to the Borg Armada" works out that well. The 8472 aren't as simple-minded as the Reavers were, they'd see VOY heading for a massive armada and think "Wait, why are we following them into an obvious attack?".
Why wouldn't they? Unlike the Borg, Species 8472 DOES have a concept of war. The Borg are their sworn enemy, I doubt they'll miss an opportunity to strike a blow against a large Borg armada.

OTOH, you yourself are making the assumption that Species 8472 really IS that single minded since you think they're going to respond to a telepathic signal from an unknown source with anything other than a "Who are you? Where'd you get this number?" The only unknown in this case is whether or not Species 8472 hates the Borg more than they hate random interlopers who attack without warning. Reduce the number of unknowns, and let the rest depend on the crew's collective skill and/or luck.

I don't think they did, they were expecting something that wasn't what the show was going to be about in the first place (a "grim and gritty" survival drama with unlikable characters like NuBSG). And then there was the underlying sexism about Janeway.
I don't know who you've been talking to, but for everyone I know, we were very much expecting to see "Star Trek in Very Very Deep Space." On some level that's exactly what it was, but very poorly executed all around.

We saw the Ferengi have a device that can implant scenarios and such into peoples' minds. Basically an artificial telepath in and of itself. Is it THAT much a stretch they could also find a way of boosting ones' natural power if they can synthesize that power to begin with?
Yes, I'm sure they could simply download the plans for a Ferengi thought amplifier off the internet and then with no experience whatsoever in working with such a device, quickly modify it to do something it was never designed to do in the first place.

I just figure "Okay, the beat the Borg by using their Collective mind against them. Why not just trick and use the 8472 by using their telepathy against them?"
Because that would require CAPTURING one of the 8472s and somehow getting it to cooperate with them, if even unwittingly. Even in TNG, they only managed to trick the Borg using equipment and technology that was already available and only slightly repurposed for the job. It's not as if Data pulled some kind of quantum transmitter out of his ass and used it to successfully hack the Borg ship without otherwise knowing anything about their systems (or, if you prefer, Naomi Wildman locking out the bridge controls by repeatedly pushing a five-button combination on Seven's alcove).

Having the Bridge crew discuss stuff they should already know amongst themselves just comes off as random info-dumping.
Indeed. It's a requirement of stage play that information be refreshed and reestablished from time to time to keep everything in context (believability is important in these types of things). The tricky part is finding a way to do this that doesn't seem forced or corny or disruptive. The easiest way of doing this is by voiceover narration, but Star Trek has never employed a narrator, so the second easiest method is lampshading/idiot balling. Take a long from the movie Space Camp:

Andie: Great. No oxygen was provided for the life support system.
Rudy: What about the propulsion system? We can direct the liquid oxygen from there.
Katherine: The propulsion system uses nitrogen tetroxide. We wanna breathe, not dry-clean our lungs!
Whether Rudy knows this or not is kind of irrelevant (he probably should, considering how much studying he's supposedly been doing). The point is most of the AUDIENCE doesn't know this, and it needs to be established that the two systems are incompatible.

And they didn't have either the Galactica or the Pegasus at all to help them during then. When they showed up, they smashed through the Basestars, got everyone off the planet, and then the need for the reset button resulted in the idiotic destruction of the Pegasus.
I think you and I saw two completely different episodes, as I vividly remember that Galactica came out of that battle on fire and shot full of holes. I also remember that Pegasus managed to destroy two out of the five base stars by CRASHING INTO THEM. Not exactly overwhelming tactical superiority (which also partly explains why the two ships initially got the hell out of dodge rather than fight and defend the planet).

By FC it seems that the Feds have weaponry the Borg can't adapt to anymore (otherwise the weapons wouldn't have scratched the Cube before Picard got there). You'd think they'd just find a way of channeling whatever it is about the new phasers and quantum torpedoes that make them effective into a big cannon and just blow them away with it in a single shot.
Except the deflector blast can't be used while the Cube is at warp, and you can't power up for a deflector blast while still in pursuit. The fact that they fought the cube all the way to Earth kind of suggests the Borg didn't bother to stop and fight and just power dove straight through, with Starfleet hacking away at them with phasers and torpedoes all the way. If the whole Time Travel thing was the plan all along, then the cube was just a carrier for Queenie's TARDIS that for some reason could only open the time portal while it was right next to Earth.

Of course, not much about the plot of FC makes a great deal of sense to begin with, so the lack of deflector blasts may well be one of them.

Because in neither case was EVASION their goal. In BOBW their objective was to stall the Borg until the fleet was gathered in Wolf-359. In Descent, they were trying to rescue their stranded crewmen, who were themselves sent to rescue Data.
But their examples of triumphing over the Borg would still cause negative reactions to the VOY crew not managing to do the same in THEIR Borg encounters as well.
Why? Voyager's entire premise was fundamentally different. Nobody expected Janeway to single handedly hunt down and wipe out the entire collective, in fact her preference for doing so was kind of annoying. Like "Excuse me, you're lost on the ass end of the galaxy... don't you have better things you should be doing right now?"

They'd just go "Well, before the good guys only had their one ship so why is it these losers can't find some way of epically defeating the Borg before moving on?"
Fuck it. Switching to automated responses: YOU ARE NOT LOCUTUS, YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE TREKKIE HIVE MIND. Stop pretending like you know what everyone else would do as if that excuses what the writers failed to do..

But if they are that insatiable and aren't used to anyone getting away
I never said they were insatiable. I said they were PREDATORY. They're also pretty damn smart, and are able to make a cost-benefit analysis about how much energy is worth a particular acquisition. If you make it too expensive for them, they'll look for easier prey.

If you're really unlucky, then you're the easiest prey around, in which case you have to find a way to kill them. Otherwise, it might just be a cat-and-mouse episode where you get to outwit them and count your blessings.
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Old December 8 2010, 09:09 PM   #78
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
OTOH, you yourself are making the assumption that Species 8472 really IS that single minded since you think they're going to respond to a telepathic signal from an unknown source with anything other than a "Who are you? Where'd you get this number?"
At the time, they were xenocidal so I'd assume they'd just kill anything from our dimension that called out to them. Like I said, I based the whole idea off of the "Psi-Emitter" thing from Starcraft. Only difference being that in the game the protagonists stole the device from the bad guys instead of building it on their own.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but for everyone I know, we were very much expecting to see "Star Trek in Very Very Deep Space." On some level that's exactly what it was, but very poorly executed all around.
Mainly my family, and folks who I watched the show with 15 years ago. They wrote it off mid-way through the premiere.

Yes, I'm sure they could simply download the plans for a Ferengi thought amplifier off the internet and then with no experience whatsoever in working with such a device, quickly modify it to do something it was never designed to do in the first place.
If the ENT-D team could modify the Deflector Dish into a huge phaser cannon I don't see how changing what kind of mental pattern a psychic device is meant to tap into would be that hard. It would basically be "Okay, just change it from "human brainwaves" to the brainwaves recorded in Kes when she talked to the 8472".

Because that would require CAPTURING one of the 8472s and somehow getting it to cooperate with them, if even unwittingly. Even in TNG, they only managed to trick the Borg using equipment and technology that was already available and only slightly repurposed for the job. It's not as if Data pulled some kind of quantum transmitter out of his ass and used it to successfully hack the Borg ship without otherwise knowing anything about their systems (or, if you prefer, Naomi Wildman locking out the bridge controls by repeatedly pushing a five-button combination on Seven's alcove).
Kes gets a message from the 8472, then decides to try and reply back to them. I mean, Spock somehow got messages from V'Ger all throughout TMP and no one thought it was strange he was the only semi-psychic that happened to.

I think you and I saw two completely different episodes, as I vividly remember that Galactica came out of that battle on fire and shot full of holes. I also remember that Pegasus managed to destroy two out of the five base stars by CRASHING INTO THEM. Not exactly overwhelming tactical superiority (which also partly explains why the two ships initially got the hell out of dodge rather than fight and defend the planet).
Prior episodes showed the Pegasus being able to fight off Basestars, they only resorted to stupidity like ramming them to get rid of the Pegasus for the reset button's sake.

Why? Voyager's entire premise was fundamentally different. Nobody expected Janeway to single handedly hunt down and wipe out the entire collective, in fact her preference for doing so was kind of annoying. Like "Excuse me, you're lost on the ass end of the galaxy... don't you have better things you should be doing right now?"
The TOS Ent and TNG Ent were still basically "On their own" vessels, managing to overcome all the weirdness they encountered. Not saying she should've destroyed the Collective but she should have been able to overcome any Borg in the way like Kirk overcame his obstacles and Picard his.

Fuck it. Switching to automated responses: YOU ARE NOT LOCUTUS, YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE TREKKIE HIVE MIND. Stop pretending like you know what everyone else would do as if that excuses what the writers failed to do..
They didn't want to be sexists for having the ship Captained by a woman to be a bunch of losers who ran from everything. Seems clear to me. If Janeway was a guy then maybe weaker stances from the crew and running away with their tails tucked between their legs would've worked out better.

It sort of hurt that it was preceded by shows where the heroics crews always overcame everything. Farscape and NuBSG didn't have that "They were heroes but these guys are losers" stigma.

I never said they were insatiable. I said they were PREDATORY. They're also pretty damn smart, and are able to make a cost-benefit analysis about how much energy is worth a particular acquisition. If you make it too expensive for them, they'll look for easier prey.
But have we ever seen any evidence of that in the show? They just seem to keep coming and not stop in their goals. Sounds insatiable to me.
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Old December 8 2010, 09:47 PM   #79
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Anwar wrote: View Post
At the time, they were xenocidal so I'd assume they'd just kill anything from our dimension that called out to them.
So they would simply kill anything in our dimension that they encounter, PERIOD. All you have to do is bring them into proximity of a large Borg fleet and let the fireworks begin.

If the ENT-D team could modify the Deflector Dish into a huge phaser cannon I don't see how changing what kind of mental pattern a psychic device is meant to tap into would be that hard.
Because the Enterprise' engineering team was specifically trained to work with that equipment, they had experience working with it, they had its specifications, design notes, they knew its tolerances, AND they had access to it long enough and intimately enough to figure out how to make those modifications... and even then, it still almost exploded.

Is anyone on Voyager experienced in working with Ferengi thought makers? Or in light of the fact that none of them served on the Enterprise, what makes you think any of them had ever HEARD of such a device, let alone knew how to make one, let alone knew how to modify one?

Kes gets a message from the 8472, then decides to try and reply back to them. I mean, Spock somehow got messages from V'Ger all throughout TMP
Spock never replied to V'ger telepathically. As it stands, it took several minutes to figure out how to do that with ordinary radio.

Kes is smart cookie, but she's no Spock.

Prior episodes showed the Pegasus being able to fight off Basestars
"Fight off" in the sense of "They shot us full of holes, boarded us and then killed a third of the crew and we somehow made it out alive." Color me impressed.

The TOS Ent and TNG Ent were still basically "On their own" vessels, managing to overcome all the weirdness they encountered. Not saying she should've destroyed the Collective but she should have been able to overcome any Borg in the way like Kirk overcame his obstacles and Picard his.
Perhaps you could give me an example of when it was that Scotty and his engineering team worked to create an alien device completely out of thin air that was capable of luring an entire alien race into a genocidal conflict with another alien race.

Or maybe--just MAYBE--the more dramatically pleasing solution is also the simplest, the least complicated, and the most suspenseful?

I never said they were insatiable. I said they were PREDATORY. They're also pretty damn smart, and are able to make a cost-benefit analysis about how much energy is worth a particular acquisition. If you make it too expensive for them, they'll look for easier prey.
But have we ever seen any evidence of that in the show?
Yes. The El Aurians are still alive. In point of fact, so is Icheb's entire civilization, after a fashion, having been reduced to a technical level that the Borg no longer find interesting.
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Old December 8 2010, 11:11 PM   #80
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
So they would simply kill anything in our dimension that they encounter, PERIOD. All you have to do is bring them into proximity of a large Borg fleet and let the fireworks begin.
And then find some way of getting away despite both species have superior FTL to them (whereas in "Serenity" neither the Alliance nor the Reavers were faster than the good guys) and easily being able to blast them apart in a single shot before the battle heats up. A safer and more intelligent way would be to get them fighting without having to rely on such an unstable strategy as "Hope we get there before they kill us".

Is anyone on Voyager experienced in working with Ferengi thought makers? Or in light of the fact that none of them served on the Enterprise, what makes you think any of them had ever HEARD of such a device, let alone knew how to make one, let alone knew how to modify one?

Spock never replied to V'ger telepathically. As it stands, it took several minutes to figure out how to do that with ordinary radio.

Kes is smart cookie, but she's no Spock.
Then we go with my other suggestion of Tuvok (who'd know something about psychic ability) suggesting that the combined psychic power of all the telepathic species onboard try to resonate off of one another to get the 8472's attention. Or they manage to capture the 8472 that attacked Harry and use IT as the focal point for their call.

"Fight off" in the sense of "They shot us full of holes, boarded us and then killed a third of the crew and we somehow made it out alive." Color me impressed.
I was referring to how Pegasus could just go right at Basestars, fire off nukes and blow them up. Before the Pegasus arrived the Basestars were like instant doom, afterwards they were beatable.

Perhaps you could give me an example of when it was that Scotty and his engineering team worked to create an alien device completely out of thin air that was capable of luring an entire alien race into a genocidal conflict with another alien race.
Stuff like finding out how to use the engines' of the Constellation to destroy the Doomsday Machine (yeah I know it was more because Decker killed himself), creating a bomb powerful enough to kill the Space Amoeba, etc.

Or maybe--just MAYBE--the more dramatically pleasing solution is also the simplest, the least complicated, and the most suspenseful?
It makes the VOY crew seem suicidal and not even bothering to try anything else. At least with the "Ram it!" moment in BOBW it was only AFTER trying anything more complicated failed.

Yes. The El Aurians are still alive. In point of fact, so is Icheb's entire civilization, after a fashion, having been reduced to a technical level that the Borg no longer find interesting.
Good point, and they did say that they didn't go for the Kazon for being less advanced. The continued existence of others like the Vidiians, Hirogen, Krenim and others shows that either they can fight off the Borg or they weren't interested (although they are more advanced than the Feds in some ways).
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Old December 9 2010, 12:09 AM   #81
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

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Of course, not much about the plot of FC makes a great deal of sense to begin with, so the lack of deflector blasts may well be one of them.
If you're talking about 'why didn't the borg travelled into the past in the Delta Quadrant and then assimilate 21st century Earth with no problems' - this is hardly a plot hole; indeed, it's easily explained satisfactorily.

It's obvious the borg's A plan was to assimilate 24th century Earth; and, as the movie showed, they had a very good chance of doing just that.

Travelling into the past was the B plan - and for obvious reasons; instead of assimilating advanced 24th century humanity, they would assimilate some rag-tag communities, remnants of a primitive society that was just ravaged by a catastrophic war.
As assimilation targets go, 21st century humanity's value would be beneath the kazon - which were too uninteresting/lame to be an assimilation target - if not for humanity's future proeminence.

Which is most likely why the borg don't employ routinely time travel into the past. This strategy would severely decrease the value of any assimilation target, each time it would be employed.

And, of course, any 'time travel into the past' mission is likely to change the future borg that sent the mission - for someone which believs itself to be perfect, that would be another BIG reason NOT to do it.
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Old December 9 2010, 05:02 AM   #82
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Anwar wrote: View Post
I was referring to how Pegasus could just go right at Basestars, fire off nukes and blow them up. Before the Pegasus arrived the Basestars were like instant doom, afterwards they were beatable.
They were ALWAYS beatable; Galactica had nukes too, remember? But two warships against three enemy ships is a better bet than a single warship that is, from the very beginning, already outflanked.

Stuff like finding out how to use the engines' of the Constellation to destroy the Doomsday Machine (yeah I know it was more because Decker killed himself), creating a bomb powerful enough to kill the Space Amoeba, etc.
Yep. Make use of what you have, what you have available, what your ship is known to have in its internal stores. You shouldn't be sitting here trying to invent a totally new device just for plot purposes, simply repurpose one that you already have. Hell, at the risk of breaching on a badly abused cliche, it would make alot more sense to use the deflector dish for that; if nothing else, it would finally feature the deflector being used in a way you would expect a futuristic parabolic disk TO be used: ultra long range communication with an alien race.

Or maybe--just MAYBE--the more dramatically pleasing solution is also the simplest, the least complicated, and the most suspenseful?
It makes the VOY crew seem suicidal and not even bothering to try anything else.
Walking up to the Borg and trying to propose some kind of alliance already fits that criterion. If you're going to do something suicidally dangerous anyway, you could at least make sure it isn't monumentally stupid.

Yes. The El Aurians are still alive. In point of fact, so is Icheb's entire civilization, after a fashion, having been reduced to a technical level that the Borg no longer find interesting.
Good point, and they did say that they didn't go for the Kazon for being less advanced. The continued existence of others like the Vidiians, Hirogen, Krenim and others shows that either they can fight off the Borg or they weren't interested (although they are more advanced than the Feds in some ways).
Actually, I tend to think Seven was only referring to their civilization being unfit for assimilation. The same might very well be true of the Klingons and the Romulans, since neither of them seem to have had any Borg trouble over the years.

Here's a whimsical thought: suppose the objective of the borg in Best of Both Worlds wasn't to BORGIFY humanity as much as to force their compliance for a very specific and very complicated material need? The Borg DID say that they needed Picard because they felt a singular authority figure would aid them in their dealings; was this simple hubris on their part, or was Locutus being selected as their mouthpiece in ALL future dealings between the Borg and Humanity? I could almost see that devolving into a "Torchwood - Children of Earth" scenario where the Borg hover over the Earth for several months demanding the transport of a specific number of humans with certain mental and physical attributes.
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Old December 9 2010, 05:08 AM   #83
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Of course, not much about the plot of FC makes a great deal of sense to begin with, so the lack of deflector blasts may well be one of them.
If you're talking about 'why didn't the borg travelled into the past in the Delta Quadrant and then assimilate 21st century Earth with no problems' - this is hardly a plot hole; indeed, it's easily explained satisfactorily.

It's obvious the borg's A plan was to assimilate 24th century Earth; and, as the movie showed, they had a very good chance of doing just that.

Travelling into the past was the B plan - and for obvious reasons; instead of assimilating advanced 24th century humanity, they would assimilate some rag-tag communities, remnants of a primitive society that was just ravaged by a catastrophic war.
As assimilation targets go, 21st century humanity's value would be beneath the kazon - which were too uninteresting/lame to be an assimilation target - if not for humanity's future proeminence.

Which is most likely why the borg don't employ routinely time travel into the past. This strategy would severely decrease the value of any assimilation target, each time it would be employed.

And, of course, any 'time travel into the past' mission is likely to change the future borg that sent the mission - for someone which believs itself to be perfect, that would be another BIG reason NOT to do it.
There are two problems with this explanation:

1) Why would they have resorted to such an elaborate Plan-B, when a much simpler and more effective contingency plan would be simply SEND MORE THAN ONE FUCKING SHIP?

2) If their objective was to assimilate EARTH, why did the Borg travel back through time specifically to prevent First Contact? Would it not be more efficient--and indeed, more useful--to travel back to the mid 23rd century, when no one on Earth had ever heard of the Borg and had no idea how to fight them? Hell, traveling back to the 2350s would have accomplished that just as well, wouldn't it?
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Old December 9 2010, 09:02 AM   #84
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Of course, not much about the plot of FC makes a great deal of sense to begin with, so the lack of deflector blasts may well be one of them.
If you're talking about 'why didn't the borg travelled into the past in the Delta Quadrant and then assimilate 21st century Earth with no problems' - this is hardly a plot hole; indeed, it's easily explained satisfactorily.

It's obvious the borg's A plan was to assimilate 24th century Earth; and, as the movie showed, they had a very good chance of doing just that.

Travelling into the past was the B plan - and for obvious reasons; instead of assimilating advanced 24th century humanity, they would assimilate some rag-tag communities, remnants of a primitive society that was just ravaged by a catastrophic war.
As assimilation targets go, 21st century humanity's value would be beneath the kazon - which were too uninteresting/lame to be an assimilation target - if not for humanity's future proeminence.

Which is most likely why the borg don't employ routinely time travel into the past. This strategy would severely decrease the value of any assimilation target, each time it would be employed.

And, of course, any 'time travel into the past' mission is likely to change the future borg that sent the mission - for someone which believs itself to be perfect, that would be another BIG reason NOT to do it.
There are two problems with this explanation:

1) Why would they have resorted to such an elaborate Plan-B, when a much simpler and more effective contingency plan would be simply SEND MORE THAN ONE FUCKING SHIP?

2) If their objective was to assimilate EARTH, why did the Borg travel back through time specifically to prevent First Contact? Would it not be more efficient--and indeed, more useful--to travel back to the mid 23rd century, when no one on Earth had ever heard of the Borg and had no idea how to fight them? Hell, traveling back to the 2350s would have accomplished that just as well, wouldn't it?
Why didn't the borg send more than one cube - both in BOBW and FC?
Because assimilating Earth is not high on the borg's list of priorities. Not even close. The borg's low interest in Earth/humanity was proven repeatedly during star trek.
The borg was not willing to waste more resources than one cube (sent after long periods of inaction) on a world at the other end of the galaxy, but it was sending 2 cubes and a diamond for some minor species closer to its territory.
Also, the borg - and even Picard - had no problem time travelling. Casual time travel. So much for plan B being 'ellaborate'.

Why didn't the borg travel to the 23rd century?
Because a 23rd century fleet could have destroyed that sphere easily enough. Picard's ship destroyed the sphere with a torpedo barrage, in seconds.
When the borg saw it won't get to assimilate state of the art 24th century humanity, but, from the future perspective, a backwards civilization (which applies both to 21st and 23rd century humanity), valuable - more or less - only for its role in the future, it choose NOT to go to a time when resistance is likely to be substantial (23rd century), but to a time when resistance will be minimal (21st century).

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Old December 9 2010, 09:16 AM   #85
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

^ Except the Borg keep telling everyone resistance is futile... evidently they don't really believe that.

Moreover, even the Borg have to realize that humanity will have NO ROLE AT ALL in the future if they wind up getting assimilated first. And my question was why they specifically sought to prevent First Contact (they spent more time trying to accomplish this than actually assimilating Earth!) thus preventing humans from developing any level of technology that would make them the least bit useful. They might as well start assimilating apes at this point.
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Old December 9 2010, 09:28 AM   #86
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

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^ Except the Borg keep telling everyone resistance is futile... evidently they don't really believe that.
The borg was defeated more than once - species 8472 being the clearest example.
The borg believes that, in the fulness of time, it will assimilate everything of value from the entire universe, not that it will win every battle, especially not if it charges in idiotically, with no plan beyond brute force.

Moreover, even the Borg have to realize that humanity will have NO ROLE AT ALL in the future if they wind up getting assimilated first. And my question was why they specifically sought to prevent First Contact (they spent more time trying to accomplish this than actually assimilating Earth!) thus preventing humans from developing any level of technology that would make them the least bit useful. They might as well start assimilating apes at this point.
The borg wanted to assimilate humanity because of its potential (build a federation, etc - star trek's humanity 'je ne sais quoi') - it determined that humanity's bilogical distinctiveness is of relative value.

Initially, it wanted to asimilate humanity's technological distinctiveness, too - plan A - but that failed when its cube was destroyed, so it went with the suckier plan B.

Once in the past, it lost the battle with Picard and was destroyed - which is why it failed at assimilating 21st century Earth.
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Old December 9 2010, 09:46 AM   #87
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

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The borg wanted to assimilate humanity because of its potential (build a federation, etc - star trek's humanity 'je ne sais quoi') - it determined that humanity's bilogical distinctiveness is of relative value.
I understand that worked as a post-facto explanation. But how do you go from "They're not interested in conquest, they're only interested in your technology" to "They don't care about your technology, they're only interested in your biological distinctiveness." That's a pretty radical change IMO.
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Old December 9 2010, 10:04 AM   #88
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

The borg underwent pretty radical changes between 'Q, who' and BOBW and between BOBW and FC.
Real world reason - the writers were refining the concept of 'borg'.
In universe explanation - Guinan/Starfleet's information on the borg was incomplete, in flux.

Also - by FC, the borg was interested in both the biological and technological distinctiveness of humanity.
That's why it attacked, initially, 24th century Earth. Soon, it became clear it'll fail in this attack.

So - it settled on the next best thing: assimilate only the biological distinctiveness - much better than wasting a cube, remaining empty-handed.
It went back in time to the nearest period when resistance will be practically non-existent, its success assured - 21st century, after WW III.
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Old December 9 2010, 03:23 PM   #89
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yep. Make use of what you have, what you have available, what your ship is known to have in its internal stores. You shouldn't be sitting here trying to invent a totally new device just for plot purposes, simply repurpose one that you already have. Hell, at the risk of breaching on a badly abused cliche, it would make alot more sense to use the deflector dish for that; if nothing else, it would finally feature the deflector being used in a way you would expect a futuristic parabolic disk TO be used: ultra long range communication with an alien race.
Bottom line, they have a means to get the 8472 to the area that's a tad less suicidal than "Fire at them and pray they don't easily overtake and kill us in a nanosecond.". Voy's maximum warp speed thing was never effective when dealing with Uberfoes like the Borg and 8472.

Walking up to the Borg and trying to propose some kind of alliance already fits that criterion. If you're going to do something suicidally dangerous anyway, you could at least make sure it isn't monumentally stupid.
It was the lesser of two evils, at the time since the 8472 were the superior foe and utterly xenocidal compared to the Borg. And they knew they'd get stabbed in the back anyways and prepared for it. Worked out for them in the end.
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Old December 10 2010, 04:23 AM   #90
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Anwar wrote: View Post
Voy's maximum warp speed thing was never effective when dealing with Uberfoes like the Borg and 8472.
I'll again remind you that Voyager managed to outrun the bioships from their very first encounter. Moreover, Voyager's purported maximum cruising velocity of Warp 9.975 should have been enough to outrun any alien vessel and more than enough to stay slightly ahead of the Borg... if only the writers bothered to stick to their own background info.
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