RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,162
Posts: 5,402,651
Members: 24,751
Currently online: 508
Newest member: kaklina

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 4 2010, 06:47 AM   #1
Infern0
Captain
 
Infern0's Avatar
 
Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone..

After Q Who?

I thought the use of them there, and the context was brilliant.

They were literally an unstoppable force, shown by Q to show the humans what was out there, a reminder basically of how vunerable humanity was.

After that i thought they really weakened with every appearance, eventually becoming cannon-fodder for god-ger
Infern0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 06:53 AM   #2
Gul Re'jal
Commodore
 
Gul Re'jal's Avatar
 
Location: Gul Re'jal is suspecting she's on the wrong space station
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

I think they ruined the Borg adding the Queen. They were much more menacing without a single mind behind, but as a pure hive. Now it's just a slave race with some ambitious lady at the helm. Without her they would be more of a mystery and harder to understand.

And 7of9 gave too much info, making them dull in the end. All terrifying mystery gone
__________________
In a Cardassian library or in a Cardassian gallery?

"Reagan, it appears, is really only an ardent unionist if the unions in question are in Poland" - Stephen King, Skeleton Crew
Gul Re'jal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 07:04 AM   #3
Paradon
Rear Admiral
 
Paradon's Avatar
 
Location: Huckleberry Hound;California Love;the golden state
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

I think without the queen(s) they wouldn't be able to function. They do all the negotiations and stuff like that.... Think of the Borg as a single collective (one being) and the queen is just a central nervous system. I don't think they intelligent enough to adapt to something they don't know. They have to scan you or assimilate you or the information about you in order to adapt. Species 8472 can't be assimilate, so the best they can do is kill them and that was because Janeway was helping them to learn more about them.
__________________
"This is not about who has the biggest gun or more powerful ships... A friend in power is a friend lost."
Paradon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 07:12 AM   #4
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

I think that after "Best of Both Worlds," that should have been it for the Borg. But they were too good a bad guy to be left alone by the writers and producers, so downhill was the only way to go. "First Contact" made the Borg scary again, but it also gave us the Borg Queen.

I won't even talk about Hugh, The Friendly Borg in TNG's "I, Borg." I simply refuse to do that...

The less you know about a monster, the more dangerous it is. Once you get to know them and learn how to counter and manipulate them, they lose their power and become more or less a typical moustache-twirling villain to be defeated every time they appear.

Ideally, the Borg were the ultimate Star Trek enemy. A force that should logically have destroyed the Federation in their next encounter after "Best of Both Worlds" by sending multiple Borg cubes towards Earth. But since that would have pretty much ended the story of Star Trek--or worse, turn it into a Battlestar Galactica clone--the Borg had to be neutered in such a way that their full potential could never be unleashed against our heroes...even in their own home turf in the Delta Quadrant.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 07:44 AM   #5
Paradon
Rear Admiral
 
Paradon's Avatar
 
Location: Huckleberry Hound;California Love;the golden state
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

I think what makes them scary is that you know in the end they will assimilate you no matter what. There are no if's or but's. They don't have individuality like other alien cultures do.... They are like bacterias or viruses. They will keep coming and assimilate you, destroying everything in their path.
__________________
"This is not about who has the biggest gun or more powerful ships... A friend in power is a friend lost."
Paradon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 07:48 AM   #6
ngc7293
Commander
 
ngc7293's Avatar
 
Location: Michigan
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Best of Both Worlds, though good, was a mistake. I forgot the metaphor, but once you bring out the monster, you can't put it back in (still can't remember it ) Anyway, once the writers had the Borg attacking Earth there was no turning back.

If they had left it in Q's hands left the Borg somewhere out THERE, Q could come back every once in a while with the Borg THREAT or the imagined threat.

The story lines are possible but too late. If they did it all right, in Voyager, Janway would have taken the longway AROUND Borg space out of fear (heck, Q could even drop the Borg threat if she got bold) and they would run in to other things. There might still be a way to run into "38 of D".
__________________
Judy Waxhorn: "Lighbulb is shot can't see a damn thing. Prepare to trash the ship. LaForge, disable the warp-core protection system. Troi, take the helm. All hands, prepare for DRAMA."
ngc7293 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 11:17 AM   #7
RyuRoots
Fleet Captain
 
RyuRoots's Avatar
 
Location: Ul'Dah
View RyuRoots's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to RyuRoots
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

I think the Borg were handled mostly well, for a while. TNG did good with them (Descent notwithstanding, but as they weren't part of the collective, I don't really think it's villain decay or anything). First Contact did a good job with them, but unfortunately introduced the Borg Queen, a horrible idea if there ever was one. Scorpion was amazing, too. It wasn't until after that things went downhill, I think

The Borg were a great foe, and I think it was good they reused them, and they did more good than bad with them for a good while.


By the way, I'm calling it now. This is gonna become one of those threads, since Voyager and The Borg will doubtlessly come up again.
__________________
Star Trek: 1987-Present
RyuRoots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 11:44 AM   #8
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Paradon wrote: View Post
I think without the queen(s) they wouldn't be able to function. They do all the negotiations and stuff like that....
That's what makes the Queen boring. The whole 'need a mouthpiece' thing worked once with Locutus, but what do the Borg need to negotiate for?

And besides...if there was a Queen all along, why did they need Locutus anyway?

The Borg, as a villain, are perfectly constructed to become less interesting every single time they are used.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 11:51 AM   #9
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

ngc7293 wrote: View Post
I forgot the metaphor, but once you bring out the monster, you can't put it back in.
Pandora's box?

Paradon wrote: View Post
Think of the Borg as a single collective (one being) and the queen is just a central nervous system.
I think the Borg collective as more vast number of enslaved races, with the queens in the role of the slave master. BoBW and Unimatrix zero showed that the drones retain their internal personality, their simply aren't in control of their bodies actions. It's a never ending horror show.

One of the thing TPTB really got right in FC was the overt fear on the part of the Enterprise's crew at the thought of facing the Borg and being assimilated.

Assimilation equal enslavement.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 12:29 PM   #10
Myasishchev
Rear Admiral
 
Myasishchev's Avatar
 
Location: America after the rain
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Pretty much agree, although I liked "I, Borg," because that's really more of a story about Picard's morality than anything else. Anyway, that would've been my cutoff.

There was literally no way for them to have been interesting as an ongoing threat, given their conception: a force of nature with no real personality. And giving them a personality really ruined them--of course, giving them the personality of Snidely Whiplash made it even worse.

To have been consistently interesting, they'd have had to have posed an ideological threat as well as a physical one, and they never posed an ideological threat, because they were conceived as abhorrent. If the Borg way of life had been tempting--if the Borg Collective had been less of a slave pen and more of participatory Matrix--then an indefinite number of stories could have been told about them.

As it stood, all you really had was a zombie story, and zombie stories are fundamentally limited creatures.
__________________

Myasishchev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 02:45 PM   #11
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
As it stood, all you really had was a zombie story, and zombie stories are fundamentally limited creatures.
Essentially, space zombies was the approach that was taken with the Borg in First Contact--the Enterprise was effectively turned into "Night of the Living Dead" for that story--but the Borg Queen gave the zombies a voice and an opportunity for civilized conversation about their motives and plans for the future.

Most zombie stories don't go that far--and with good reason, IMO...
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 03:10 PM   #12
CaptJimboJones
Vice Admiral
 
CaptJimboJones's Avatar
 
Location: Hotlanta
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Borg are very hit and miss IMO. I enjoyed the first part of BOBW, but the second part, particularly the ending, was utterly ridiculous. I, Borg presented an interesting ethical dilemma but then devolved into moralistic finger-wagging of the worst sort and ended was a decision by Picard that, in a rational world, should have ended his career with a court martial. I thought Scorpion was fairly well done, and I loved First Contact.

Interestingly I also thought that Regeneration, which was excoriated by the fans at the time, was among the very best of all the Borg episodes - a very taut, tightly-plotted thriller in which the Borg were actually frightening again. It was also frustrating in the sense that it demonstrated that the Enterprise staff had the ability to produce very well-written episodes, and yet the majority of shows in that second season were terribly written.
__________________
"Do not fear mistakes. There are none." - Miles Davis
CaptJimboJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 03:14 PM   #13
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

The Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW, if you ask me. Once an enemy has been shown to be THAT powerful and comes THAT close to victory, there's nowhere to go but down.

If they HAD to use them again then "Scorpion" should've killed them all (and all the 8472 as well). Any other Borg stories after that should've been about the Feds running into folks who're trying to use leftover Borg technology, and the Feds trying to stop them because the tech will assimilate the raiders and re-create the Borg.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2010, 10:40 PM   #14
RyuRoots
Fleet Captain
 
RyuRoots's Avatar
 
Location: Ul'Dah
View RyuRoots's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to RyuRoots
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW, if you ask me. Once an enemy has been shown to be THAT powerful and comes THAT close to victory, there's nowhere to go but down.
I dunno, I think both First Contact and Scorpion did a good job as presenting them as a frighteningly powerful foe.
__________________
Star Trek: 1987-Present
RyuRoots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5 2010, 12:46 AM   #15
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Not really, FC could've been about any enemy using time-travel as a weapon. And it needed the Queen as an easy out of killing off the Collective (kill her, the Collective on the ENT-E all died)

"Scorpion" did work, but it also highlights how limited the Borg are: They needed to introduce ANOTHER overpowered foe to do anything with the Borg. AND folks still complain that VOY had too big an impact on the storyline.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.