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Old December 10 2010, 02:05 AM   #1
drazzz52923849
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Star trek Time Travel?

Now if the Borg had the power to go back in the past(First Contact) Why didn't they just do this in the first place? It seems pretty logical that if you had someone you want destroyed, and the power to go back in time, you would just go back in time and destroy that/ those people/persons before they are even born. It seems like in all of the species in all of trek that could travel back in time, earth should have been destroyed a long time ago. I don't think anyone would want to do it the hard way.
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Old December 10 2010, 04:18 AM   #2
The Wormhole
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

Well, the Borg's goal is assimilation of societies with advanced enough technology that they can add to the Collective's "perfection." Therefore, 24th century Earth is a lot more appealing than Earth of any century previous.

The question ultimately becomes why did the Borg bother with time travel in First Contact at all, especially to such a low-tech period of Earth. Not a lot about First Contact makes sense, and up until May 2009 it had the most amount of plot holes for a Trek movie.
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Old December 10 2010, 05:26 AM   #3
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

My though is that the time travel device the Borg used in FC was a one of a kind device the Borg assimilated, maybe from a ship. The crew knew how to operate the device, but the Borg couldn't reproduce it.
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Old December 10 2010, 08:25 AM   #4
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
My though is that the time travel device the Borg used in FC was a one of a kind device the Borg assimilated, maybe from a ship. The crew knew how to operate the device, but the Borg couldn't reproduce it.
I can go with this...But in VOY, we've seen the Borg do such things as opening "Singularities" into "Fluidic Space", we've also seen the Queen display an ability to recall various events that seem to defy logic ("You think in such Three-Dimensional Terms"")

Also Seven Of Nine, clearly states that the Borg were present during First Contact, thus even if the FC Borg were destroyed in the past, a clear recollection of the events survived through time

If the Federation can time travel, simply by slingshoting around a Star, its not a big stretch to assume that the Borg (who clearly are technologically superior to the Federation) can also Time Travel, but simply choose not to, because in most cases its "Not Efficient" (I guess one of the reasons they did so in FC was because Earth was constantly "Resisting" successfully)
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Old December 10 2010, 09:03 AM   #5
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

Surely though, the Borg weren't just after technology. Do they not also state they want to also add biological distinctiveness as well?
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Old December 10 2010, 09:03 AM   #6
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Well, the Borg's goal is assimilation of societies with advanced enough technology that they can add to the Collective's "perfection." Therefore, 24th century Earth is a lot more appealing than Earth of any century previous.

The question ultimately becomes why did the Borg bother with time travel in First Contact at all, especially to such a low-tech period of Earth. Not a lot about First Contact makes sense, and up until May 2009 it had the most amount of plot holes for a Trek movie.
The big question is why the Borg were building the interplexing beacon. it wasn't to call for reinforcements. I mean, send a single drone down to Earth. Each day, it assimilates one person. The next day there are two drones. Each assimilates one person, and on the third day there are four drones. Keep going and the entire population can (in theory) be assimilated within a month.

Also take into account that the people back then have very little in the way of defenses against the Borg.

And also take into account that you'd be starting with at least a dozen drones if the Borg beamed down to earth when the sphere was destroyed instead of to Enterprise.

So what did the Borg need reinforcements for? they didn't! And even if they did, they could have kept assimilating the Enterprise crew until they got everyone. That would give them more than enough, as well as lots of technology that far outstripped anything found on earth.

And even if they did, were the Borg really just going to wait around for however long it takes for a Cube to arrive from the Delta Quadrant?

So no, the Borg were not calling for reinforcements.

In fact, i don't think that they wanted to stop first contact at all.

I mean, think about it. What did the borg do in their efforts to stop first contact? The were shooting the silo at the beginning, and the Queen got Data to shoot at the Phoenix at the end, but honestly, those efforts seem half-hearted. The Borg Sphere should have been able to obliterate Montana itself with a few shots, but they didn't. Heck, even kirk's Enterprise had the ability to destroy all the life on a planet, and we'vce seen it in NextGen as well (The Chase). The Borg could do it if they wanted to, and they didn't. And the Queen could have got one of the drones to fire the torpedoes at the Phoenix, but she chose to let data do it, even though she couldn't trust him.

She just wasn't trying very hard.

And in the middle of the Movie, she puts all her effort into building a big radio!

And the final proof that this is correct...

Once the interplexing beacon is destroyed, the Queen tells Data that there's been "a change of plans". And it is only then that the Borg start their attempts to prevent First contact again! Why? because the Queen thought that her attempts to contact the 21st century Borg had failed, so she decided to assimilate Earth so there would still be a Borg presence in the Alpha quadrant. And who knows, once earth was assimilated, the Borg would probably be able to build an interplexing beacon anyway. But with Enterprise's nav deflector out of the picture, the Borg on Enterprise had no way of building one. It would have to wait. And so the queen changed her plans.

So what were the Borg doing with that interplexing beacon?

It wasn't to call for reinforcements. And it couldn't have done anything to interfere with Cochrane's warp flight.

But it would have been ideal to send the Borg of the past information about the future. Specifically, information about two events.

The first was the events of Q-Who?, in which a starship apparently used a form of transport that was much more effective than even the Borg’s transwarp drive (even though it was due to Q moving the Enterprise back to Federation space). The second was in the first main Borg attack on the Federation, when a human named Jean-Luc Picard formulated a defence against the Borg of such particular cunning that the Collective suffered a major defeat.

These two facts would have been included in the message that the Borg sent to the Delta Quadrant, thus informing the Borg of the 21nd century that Earth had apparently developed into something much more interesting, and worthy of assimilation. It was this message that ensured that the Borg would be curious enough about Humans and the Earth to send the Cubes that were seen in Q-Who?, and The Best of Both Worlds. Even though the Borg knew that it would cost them the ships they sent, they would have realised that such valuable knowledge about the future and a potential target would have been worth it. Thus, the primary mission of the Borg sent back in time during the film Star Trek: First Contact was not to assimilate Earth in the past, rather it was to ensure that drones with knowledge of the future were in a position to send that knowledge to the Collective in the past! It was a pre-destination paradox that was in the Borg’s best interest to ensure occurred. When viewed in this manner, it becomes apparent that the Borg’s primary mission in Star Trek: First Contact was actually completely successful (simply delayed), and that is the reason why the mission was launched, despite the fact that destruction of all the resources involved was assured.

Finally, as to the question of why the Borg travelled to Earth before travelling back in time? The answer is simple. If the Borg went back in time while they were in the Delta Quadrant, they'd probably find that the transwarp network wouldn't reach as far as earth.

So why go to Earth at all?

Because the Borg would then be in a perfect opportiunity to assimilate earth. true, it was a secondary mission objective, but if the Borg had succeeded, then they called have called the Borg in the 21st century Delta quadrant to earth, and they would have found a planet already assimilated AND with Borg technology 300 years more advanced.

(BTW, this also explains how Seven knew the Borg were present at first Contact, as Capt M said.)

Last edited by Tiberius; December 10 2010 at 09:18 AM.
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Old December 10 2010, 11:03 AM   #7
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Finally, as to the question of why the Borg travelled to Earth before travelling back in time? The answer is simple. If the Borg went back in time while they were in the Delta Quadrant, they'd probably find that the transwarp network wouldn't reach as far as earth.
Thats is a very, very good point!

However...Most Borg ships are equipped with a form of Transwarp Drive, although this is probably only a superior version of normal Warp Drive (Voyager shaved 20 years or so of their journey, using one such device, in a few hours) and not "Transwarp" in the Hub sense, after all

The idea I see is, that if the Borg travelled back in time, within range of detection from any past Borg, they would risk destroying the collective, the Borg in the past would no doubt try and Assimilate the Borg from the future and also cross "Collective-Wires", having two distinct Collective Voices within one, causing chaos and fracturing the very essence of the Borg, which is my idea of why they waited till they were near Earth before Time Travelling

As for the "Interplexing Beacon", I agree, I don't think it was necassarily for reinforcements, I think the Borg were going to signal the Borg from the 21st Century and alert them of Earth's existence, before leaving the planet in tatters, and easy pickings for the 21st Century Borg, allowing them to establish a prominent presence in the Alpha Quadrant (stopping First Contact, means no Vulcan allies), The future Borg would return to their own time, or perhaps Self-Destruct, after all their task is completed and the alternate future the Ent-E crew saw will be set in motion
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Old December 10 2010, 04:45 PM   #8
The Wormhole
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

Eckauskas wrote: View Post
Surely though, the Borg weren't just after technology. Do they not also state they want to also add biological distinctiveness as well?
The Borg's desire for technology is their top priority, and was the first thing established about them in Q Who, a year before even the concept of assimilation had been thought up. Voayger's Borg episodes adhered to this, showing there were races the Borg didn't bother with due to them lacking advanced technology. To see the Borg travel back in time and assimilate a species at a point when the most advanced technology they had was a warp-capable rocket that hadn't even been launched yet makes no sense.
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Old December 10 2010, 07:08 PM   #9
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

It makes sense because they'd want to go after humans at a time when humans are less equipped to withstand their attacks. Given how much trouble humans still had fighting against them in the 24th century, it's logical to assume humans would be sitting ducks in the 21st century. And just because our technology isn't as advanced as that of 24th century Star Trek technology doesn't mean we don't have any technology of value yet.

Another possible explanation is that they took the only travel option available to them. You're assuming that whatever technology they use for time travel allows them to be as exact as they want in choosing where to wind up. This may not be the case. They wanted to assimilate humans and their technology, who says they had precise control over where and when? I don't think their time travel technology was as exact as that of "Back to the Future", for example, where they've got read-outs to specify exact day, month, and year.
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Old December 11 2010, 02:02 AM   #10
The Wormhole
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
It makes sense because they'd want to go after humans at a time when humans are less equipped to withstand their attacks. Given how much trouble humans still had fighting against them in the 24th century, it's logical to assume humans would be sitting ducks in the 21st century. And just because our technology isn't as advanced as that of 24th century Star Trek technology doesn't mean we don't have any technology of value yet.
The Borg refused to assimilate the Kazon because their technology was sufficently advanced to make them worthy of assimilation. While the Kazon are indeed on the lower end of advanced races in Trek, they are more advanced than Earth of the early 2060s. Therefore, why would they assimilate such a primitive Earth?

Even if we accept the idea that the Federation was considered enough of a threat to the Collective that they wanted to go back in time to prevent it from existing, assimilating Earth would not be necessary to accomplish this goal. Launching an orbital assault to destroy the silo holding the Phoenix would have accomplished that.

Another possible explanation is that they took the only travel option available to them. You're assuming that whatever technology they use for time travel allows them to be as exact as they want in choosing where to wind up. This may not be the case. They wanted to assimilate humans and their technology, who says they had precise control over where and when? I don't think their time travel technology was as exact as that of "Back to the Future", for example, where they've got read-outs to specify exact day, month, and year.
According to the Voyager episode Relativity, the Borg did know they were travelling to that specific day, month, and year. It was their intention to prevent Cochrane's warp flight.
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Old December 11 2010, 07:26 AM   #11
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

If every argument you're making is through referencing events and characters of "Star Trek: Voyager" (and I assume it is, because I don't know what the hell "Kazon" is), I surrender right now.

You've found my Achilles heel, because I've barely seen any of that show, so I don't know what it did with the Borg. My speculation is only based on how the Borg were depicted from the TNG seasons to "Star Trek: First Contact". "Star Trek: Voyager" confounds me again!

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Old December 11 2010, 01:52 PM   #12
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

They probably know that earth (Federation) plays a big part in the temperol war that's been going on and maybe trying to eliminate the threat. But instead they were the reason the Federation exists in the first place. They inadvertently helped launch the Phoenix and cause The First Contact.
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Old December 11 2010, 08:33 PM   #13
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Re: Star trek Time Travel?

The old DS9 Millenium novel trilogy mentions 23rd century Klingon assault fleets sent back (via STIV-style slingshot) to attack Earth in the past. The fleets were never seen nor heard of again and the DS9ers postulate that they were either somehow destroyed en route or perhaps that they went back and succeeded - only to create a seperate, alternate timeline where Klingons invaded Earth in the past. With STXI canonizing this sort of thing, perhaps the Borg did the same - but from our POV in the multiverse we just don't see it.
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