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Old June 29 2011, 06:57 PM   #1726
Maverisms
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: North America, Sol b
Re: Design the Next Enterprise

The free copies have a retail value for tax purposes. While they certainly can deliver a game key in an email, I'd be pissed. But I figure it's a retail box. The runner up prize includes a poster signed by Cryptic people.
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Old June 29 2011, 07:41 PM   #1727
Tiberion1701
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Adam gets some notoriety... and a free game. But technically, what he's working on now is NOT the "Enterprise F" anymore. It's something different, and entirely separate, from that. His involvement ended the moment he won... and as much as some of the guys at Cryptic may WISH otherwise, that's not going to change.
I don't exactly agree here. I mean, WE are the trek community here, and in the end, we decide what is adopted into the mainstream. (I don't mean just TrekBBS of course, but the people here are a representative sample of the fans that exist outside of Cryptic's specific sphere of influence)

I mean, what you do think is more likely - That 10 years down the road when someone decides to make a 3d Model of the Enterprise F for the next big Trek game (or a new wallpaper, or fan art, whatever) - that they'll use the Cryptic version (in the end, designed by someone who wasn't the winner) or Adam's version, in whatever finished form it might appear later?

Given what I know of the fandom, Adam's will almost certainly be the "Fan's choice" for the F, simply because HE was declared the winner, and he presented good art for us to look at.

I mean CBS could certainly use the Cryptic version in "further materials" - but at this point it doesn't seem likely. Perhaps slightly less likely than them coming back to Adam and resourcing his design, and far less likely than them simply ignoring the "F" for years.

I'm trying to twist their arms over there into slowing down and doing it right - in this case the lawyers really are getting in the way of a proper final product, and that IS like rolling a 1.

But, its probbably futile - people would rather call me a hater (despite the fact that I rather like the designs presented, and feel they could be unified with Adam's work nicely into something awesome.)
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Old June 29 2011, 07:58 PM   #1728
sojourner
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Tiberion1701 wrote: View Post

I mean, what you do think is more likely - That 10 years down the road when someone decides to make a 3d Model of the Enterprise F for the next big Trek game (or a new wallpaper, or fan art, whatever) - that they'll use the Cryptic version (in the end, designed by someone who wasn't the winner) or Adam's version, in whatever finished form it might appear later?
Neither. It'll be an all new design.
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Old June 29 2011, 08:17 PM   #1729
Tiberion1701
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

sojourner wrote: View Post
Tiberion1701 wrote: View Post

I mean, what you do think is more likely - That 10 years down the road when someone decides to make a 3d Model of the Enterprise F for the next big Trek game (or a new wallpaper, or fan art, whatever) - that they'll use the Cryptic version (in the end, designed by someone who wasn't the winner) or Adam's version, in whatever finished form it might appear later?
Neither. It'll be an all new design.

At this point, you're probably right.

If Cryptic had done things like the Titan contest, perhaps not.
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Old June 29 2011, 08:32 PM   #1730
JES
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
^If you read through those links he said there were also legal issues that prevented him from working more closely with Adam.
Yep, and it's a damned shame, too... but the "overly legalese" rules for the contest led me to expect this from the very outset... a big part of why I didn't choose to bother with it.

Legally, based upon the rules stated, Adam is not PERMITTED to work on the design that Cryptic is working on. He can work on something "similar" but the moment he won, his work ceased to be his in any way whatsoever. Cryptic/CBS have no legal obligation to acknowledge him in any way, frankly, and every time that they do, it's a potential "legal mousetrap" for them.

S&S's rules for the Titan contest were much less stringent... likely because nobody at "headquarters" really cared all that much about a ship called "Titan" with the chubby bearded guy and the whiny woman running it. (cough cough) But an "Enterprise?" You can just imagine the cash register sounds in their minds, cant'cha?

Adam gets some notoriety... and a free game. But technically, what he's working on now is NOT the "Enterprise F" anymore. It's something different, and entirely separate, from that. His involvement ended the moment he won... and as much as some of the guys at Cryptic may WISH otherwise, that's not going to change.
What I meant was that Cryptic/CBS/whoever is at the tip-pity-top who makes these decisions should allow (and support) a collaboration. Maybe I don't no enough about how these legal issues work, but it seems to me that the bosses and lawyers are worrying a little to much about money or copyright ownership. I wish that they would try to work something out.
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Old June 29 2011, 08:51 PM   #1731
Noname Given
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

JES wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
^If you read through those links he said there were also legal issues that prevented him from working more closely with Adam.
Yep, and it's a damned shame, too... but the "overly legalese" rules for the contest led me to expect this from the very outset... a big part of why I didn't choose to bother with it.

Legally, based upon the rules stated, Adam is not PERMITTED to work on the design that Cryptic is working on. He can work on something "similar" but the moment he won, his work ceased to be his in any way whatsoever. Cryptic/CBS have no legal obligation to acknowledge him in any way, frankly, and every time that they do, it's a potential "legal mousetrap" for them.

S&S's rules for the Titan contest were much less stringent... likely because nobody at "headquarters" really cared all that much about a ship called "Titan" with the chubby bearded guy and the whiny woman running it. (cough cough) But an "Enterprise?" You can just imagine the cash register sounds in their minds, cant'cha?

Adam gets some notoriety... and a free game. But technically, what he's working on now is NOT the "Enterprise F" anymore. It's something different, and entirely separate, from that. His involvement ended the moment he won... and as much as some of the guys at Cryptic may WISH otherwise, that's not going to change.
What I meant was that Cryptic/CBS/whoever is at the tip-pity-top who makes these decisions should allow (and support) a collaboration. Maybe I don't no enough about how these legal issues work, but it seems to me that the bosses and lawyers are worrying a little to much about money or copyright ownership. I wish that they would try to work something out.
I hate to break it to you, but money and copyright protection of intellectual property are the ONLY things that any corporate enterprise still in business worrys about. Even GR was anything but altruistic when it came to Star Trek - he was out to make a buck (and there's nothing wrong with that.)
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Old June 30 2011, 01:26 AM   #1732
Titan Designer
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Boy am I happy I did not win, at least with the Titan had a tone of input on what happened to her. All except cryptic who never one contacted me for anything when they were developing their in game ship, that explains alot sin their in game ship does not match up to my design 100%. Like the addition of a deflector dish in the sensor pod.


Man I do not envy Adam at all. All of his ideas have been great and I actually like what he has done to flesh his design out. Cryptic's is okay, but I like the un painted version that they did before the latest renders. Also the pincher on the aft section thank god they are taking that off.

Oh well back to the Dark Mirror Universe I go.


Sean
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Old June 30 2011, 01:28 AM   #1733
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

JES wrote: View Post
What I meant was that Cryptic/CBS/whoever is at the tip-pity-top who makes these decisions should allow (and support) a collaboration. Maybe I don't no enough about how these legal issues work, but it seems to me that the bosses and lawyers are worrying a little to much about money or copyright ownership. I wish that they would try to work something out.
Well, what we're talking about is "ownership" of the design.

CBS owns it, and has an exclusive licensing deal for it to be used by Cryptic (exclusive at the moment, anyway). They own the original sketch Adam entered into the contest. They do NOT own anything else he's created, post-contest.

The moment that they use anything he's created post-contest, that's whey they're in a potential "legal mousetrap." Because they don't "own" any of that. If they did, five or ten years down the line, Adam could come forward, posit in court that they stole his post-contest work (without legal agreement or appropriate compensation) and he could end up owning the 1701-F design. All he'd need would be a jury who'd respond favorably to such a claim.

If anyone else... CBS, PPC, etc... ever used it, and Adam had a claim on any aspect of the design... he could shut down, for example, a hundred-million-dollar movie production or an entire season worth of TV shows...

Would Adam do that? Almost certainly not... but if you're a lawyer whose job is to ensure that such a thing can never happen... you'd be a fool to open yourself up to the possibility, wouldn't you?
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Old June 30 2011, 01:32 AM   #1734
Cary L. Brown
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Location: Austin, Texas
Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Titan Designer wrote: View Post
Boy am I happy I did not win, at least with the Titan had a tone of input on what happened to her. All except cryptic who never one contacted me for anything when they were developing their in game ship, that explains alot sin their in game ship does not match up to my design 100%. Like the addition of a deflector dish in the sensor pod.


Man I do not envy Adam at all. All of his ideas have been great and I actually like what he has done to flesh his design out. Cryptic's is okay, but I like the un painted version that they did before the latest renders. Also the pincher on the aft section thank god they are taking that off.

Oh well back to the Dark Mirror Universe I go.


Sean
Right...

By contrast to how the "1701-F" contest was run, the "Titan" contest was more like a patent. Sean is fully recognized as the inventor, but he's permanently assigned the rights to S&S for them to use. They cannot take away his credit (and frankly, Cryptic could be in legal trouble if Sean ever decided to push the issue with them).

I get the impression that Cryptic isn't the "bad guy" here though. They're in the unenviable position of being stuck in the middle... between the fans and a bunch of suits at Viacom (representing both CBS and PPC, I'm guessing).
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Old June 30 2011, 02:13 AM   #1735
Ihlecreations
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Hi all, I wish I understood why the design input is such a big deal. I am more than happy with what I have seen from Cryptic. I never expected to be included as the rules never stated any of that. And I will get credit as a designer on the ship, believe me I know I will. That's more than enough for me. As far as the final piece it is a collaborative effort that started with my concept.
The ORIGINAL idea was mine, and the final ship will be faithful to a point to that idea. A bit of tweaks and streamlining were done, which is exactly what needed to happen. I did a bit in my following designs and ideas and to be honest aside from the round saucer Adam Williams design is pretty darn close to what I had in mind.
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Old June 30 2011, 02:15 AM   #1736
Ihlecreations
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Oh and yes I did email that response to Capnlogan which he posted for me on the STO forums.
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Old June 30 2011, 02:39 AM   #1737
Maverisms
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Location: North America, Sol b
Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Adam, I think a lot of people are unhappy with the way the contest played out, for a lot of reasons.

There isn't so much an issue with you having or not having input as it is yet another to disagree with Cryptic about.

Personally I do disagree with them on this particular instance, because I think they should have treated you better. I noted that CaptLogan got in touch with you on his own initiative and got--I won't characterize it as a smack down--warned against that.

I understand all of the reasons for it, and I don't harbor them any ill will (really). This is an expense and conflict they probably can't afford. But knowing the reason you can't have what you want doesn't "make it all better" if that makes any sense.

But that's just me, and not entirely relevant. It, I think, boils down to a sense that Cryptic is ignoring "the fans" or doin' it wrong, or being rude.

I expect some are honestly upset on your behalf. Knowing you aren't might mollify them. But I suspect most are, like me, kind of annoyed on general principles. In my case it is an annoyance wrt "yet another thing they flubbed on this contest." Like I said, I'm not holding against them (in fact, if I blame anyone, I blame The Game Agency. They were paid to make this thing happen).
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Old June 30 2011, 03:04 AM   #1738
Ihlecreations
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Actually, I don't feel I was treated badly. In the world of intellectual property the legalities are a slippery slope. I can say the contact I had with Capnlogan was no more than 2 designers chatting on how cool it is to be part of designing the next Enterprise. I am not upset at all that any ideas I had or was inspired to have weren't used, it's par for the course in matters such as these. I do have to say Star Trek fans are a very passionate group, and I can say even I have let it get the better of me in the past.
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Old June 30 2011, 03:33 AM   #1739
Maverisms
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

I didn't mean to imply they (Cryptic) mistreated you. I'm sorry I did.

I meant, had the treatment been "good" they would have fixed the legal issues upfront. I saw it as "bad" because the language I mentioned in the rules serves no purpose but to do exactly that. Given that they can't do that, it's clear they dropped the ball at the beginning.

But as I said, "They" (yes, the alien infiltrators form the John Carpenter film) are The Game Agency, in my mind. I'm sure Cryptic--at least--would prefer a different out come. Having your input is good PR.

Anyway, This isn't an excuse. I dropped the ball in my phrasing. Just clearing it up on the belated end.

Last edited by Maverisms; June 30 2011 at 03:34 AM. Reason: Clarifying overuse of "they"
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Old July 2 2011, 01:20 AM   #1740
sosolidshoe
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Re: Design the Next Enterprise

Hello chaps, thought I'd pop over from the STO forums to(belatedly) congratulate the winner and compliment the design. I really loved the original submission, and can't wait to captain my own "F"-class ship ingame. It's a shame about the legal hurdles and time issues which will prevent Adam's expanded version of the concept getting into STO, for the moment at least, but if it's not too presumptuous I'd like to propose an idea: Treknobabble.

Consider; the storyline of STO is currently set in 2409(CBS must give permission to advance the year, and have not yet done so, so it remains the same as at the game's launch). In that storyline, the Federation is at war with the Klingon Empire, a war which began in 2405.

Now, if we assume that the design process on the Galaxy class is an outlier, and that normal ship development from concept to production is a median of say...six or seven years, then it's likely that the Starship Design Bureau began work on the "F"-class between 2401 and 2403.

So how about this(fanfic mode on); the "F"-class was originally intended to be Starfleet's new "great experiment"; a fusion of various experimental and cutting-edge technological systems designed to provide Starfleet with a worthy successor to the Galaxy-class multi-mission heavy explorer. Nanite-enhanced bio-neural gelpacks, a combination warp/quantum-slipstream engine core, multi-regenerative shielding, and a warp-capable saucer section with an innovative Vulcan-inspired warp ring which also functioned as the vessel's connection between saucer and engineering hull.

During the course of the ship's design, however, rising tensions with the Klingons, as well as the Borg resurgance, and the unfolding threat from the Undine, forced changes. Starfleet Tactical's insistence on maximising the vessel's firepower caused severe design difficulties. In order to provide redundancy, and enable the widest possible coverage in order to deal with the payload of the Klingons' new heavy carriers, the saucer section was loaded down with additional phaser strips. The resulting burden on the ship's EPS systems was so severe, it necessitated the abandonment of the warp-capable saucer concept.


The warp ring's components were stripped out and replaced with additional relays, a more traditional saucer separation system was conceived and implemented, and ablative armour added to reinforce the structure. Space trials of the prototype vessel actually revealed an advantage to the "dual-neck"; the design required less power be fed into the Structural Integrity Field than the more traditional single saucer-hull connector.
(fanfic mode off)

Ok, so that's an excuse for why Cryptic's ship has no warp ring, but what does that have to do with Adam's revised art? Well, nothing unless you like the idea chief, this kind of diatribe is just what my brain does when I see continuity errors(), but, you could perhaps "set" your ship a little further into Trek's future than Cryptic's. I doubt this war with the Klinks would last more than a decade, you could dub your enhanced design as the "movie refit" as it were; whether through enhanced energy transfer technology, or there no longer being a need to so heavily arm the ship, the refit could be seen by the design team as their chance to finally implement all the ideas which circumstance prevented during the original process.

Anyway, just an idea, hopefully someone else can TL;DR this screed for me as I'm useless at those, heh.
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