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Old November 12 2010, 12:18 AM   #16
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Dream wrote: View Post
Why does this movie need female characters anyway? With the exception of Catwomen in Batman Returns, all the women in the Batman movies have been boring. Batman doesn't need a love interest in every movie. It would be refreshing to have all the main characters in a movie be male for once.
Or... (shocking suggestion coming up)... How refreshing would it be to have one or, heck, maybe even several female characters, but make them interesting and important to the story and as active as the male characters?

I really don't get the logic "this or that movie franchise/TV show has had boring female characters, so let's just remove females altogether and only have male heroes since they're only worth it, females suck". Well if they suck, it's because they're written that way, so how about trying to write them better?
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Old November 12 2010, 12:37 AM   #17
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Talia would fit well into the lore of Nolan's Batman. Catwoman, in her thieving, non-feline incarnation would be ok, too. Quinn's backstory is too liked to the Joker, and they would have to recast him, something they will be wary to do so soon.

I agree Weisz would be a great Selena. I can live with both Knightley or Portman as Talia.
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Old November 12 2010, 01:46 AM   #18
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Talia would also bring the story full circle in my opinion, a continuation of "Batman Begins".
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Old November 12 2010, 01:54 AM   #19
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

I've been hoping for Rachel Weisz as Talia for a year and a half now.
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Old November 12 2010, 02:02 AM   #20
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
Why does this movie need female characters anyway? With the exception of Catwomen in Batman Returns, all the women in the Batman movies have been boring. Batman doesn't need a love interest in every movie. It would be refreshing to have all the main characters in a movie be male for once.
Or... (shocking suggestion coming up)... How refreshing would it be to have one or, heck, maybe even several female characters, but make them interesting and important to the story and as active as the male characters?

I really don't get the logic "this or that movie franchise/TV show has had boring female characters, so let's just remove females altogether and only have male heroes since they're only worth it, females suck". Well if they suck, it's because they're written that way, so how about trying to write them better?
Well, not to put words in anybody's mouths, but I think the sentiment was "why bother having token females, if all you're going to do is use them as someone the protagonist attempts to fuck/save"?

I agree with your point, that there ought to be female characters who aren't there just to do that. The problem here is firstly with the source material and secondly with how Nolan's run the franchise.

Talia al Ghul would be a great antagonist... if she'd been at all set up in the first film. Also if her father hadn't been shorn of all his cool shit in an effort to appeal to the squares who don't get things like "magic immortality pits" and then made even lamer with the world's dumbest terrorist plot. And sadly, Talia is still the best choice for a female antagonist.*

Catwoman is actually a pretty decent character, but on the other hand, not really a villain to hang a film on, because she's not opposed to Batman, really, they just kind of get in each other's way. Also, there's not much thematic power in "big buy beats up a woman who likes to steal shit." Fetish material, yes, but no thematic power.

After that, I'm at a loss to think of any female Bat-family characters that are suitable. Poison Ivy was mentioned, but let's not kid ourselves, she's fundamentally a B-list Bat-villain. B+, at best. Her power set also fails to fit into the gritty/realistic/frankly uncool Nolan interpretation of the Batman mythos.

Harley Quinn? Yeah, the Joker's obnoxious sidekick ought to be able to finish the trilogy on a high note.

Sasha Bordeaux? You don't even know who that is. And neither do I. Nor do either one of us care. Also she wasn't a villain.

I literally couldn't think of any more, so I went here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_villains

The first female villain I even recognized was Lady Vic. And I'd bet a dollar I'm the only one who knows what she looks like, and that's only on account she was in Secret Six.

But she did remind me of Lady Shiva, who would come off pretty much identically to Talia, outside the larger context of the comics, in the narrower scope of film portrayal. Except she'd also be a racial stereotype. Keen!

I still say Azrael or Bane, or both. They're the only foes that would 1)fit in with Nolan's take on Batman in general and 2)have enough conceptual strength to carry a film.

Or Catman. Catman would be cool.

*On the other hand, maybe Talia in the Nolanverse wouldn't be too bad. It might be better than in some of the comics she's been in, since her portrayal in the upcoming film would, by default, not be a portrayal of Talia that didn't reduce her to "that chick Bruce Wayne banged back in the 1980s, and who finally had his son twenty years later"--that is, essentially a plot device. Seriously, I just read Batman and Son and for its few strengths, Morrison's Talia is just... painfully bad. Painfully sexist and really just unpleasantly pointlike in how many dimensions she exists in there. (Also, note to aspiring terrorists: you can't make the British Army disband its garrison on Gibraltar because you kidnapped the PM's wife. That's just fucking stupid.)
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Old November 12 2010, 02:10 AM   #21
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

How is Morrison's Talia sexist exactly? I think he's written her as being arrogant, superior, elitist and she is all of those things. I detected no difference in his Talia than how she's been written anywhere else.
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Old November 12 2010, 02:15 AM   #22
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
I still say Azrael or Bane, or both. They're the only foes that would 1)fit in with Nolan's take on Batman in general and 2)have enough conceptual strength to carry a film.
Azrael would make an interesting antagonist for a Batman film. A fairly straightforward adaptation of Sword of Azrael would work within the context of Nolan's work. (It would also be an ersatz James Bond film.)

Azrael as an opponent manipulated by Talia into taking on Batman, though, would be downright fantastic.
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Old November 12 2010, 02:23 AM   #23
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Admiral Young wrote:
How is Morrison's Talia sexist exactly? I think he's written her as being arrogant, superior, elitist and she is all of those things. I detected no difference in his Talia than how she's been written anywhere else.
Obsessed with being with Batman, to the point of mania. It was dreadfully off-putting.

Now, bear in mind I'm basing this off what I've read in the Batman and Son trade. Her brief appearance in Batman RIP wasn't much of anything substantial. My collection of Morrisonian Batman is patchy, largely because I keep trying to like it (because Morrison is, ordinarily, the shit), but I keep failing to do so.

Anyway, some sample lines to show you what I mean:

"You know I always get what I want, beloved. And what I want is you. I want us to fulfill my father's wishes and be a family [...] Join me and I promise I'll never threaten civilization again."

And Batman brushes her off and:

"Then it's war. And you're responsibile. My dear detective, my mad, bilionaire, brilliant genius with your secret hideouts [did Grant Morrison think we forgot which comic we were reading? shit, I thought this was about that guy from Krypton with the glasses, and further unnecessary description], your double life and your Justice League membership... it's not over."

Like, seriously? This is what all those cyphers in masks are going to die for? Talia al Ghul's loneliness? That's horrid.

Is she like that everywhere? Jeez.

On the plus side, Damian is great. I don't know why people were saying he sucked. He's easily the best thing in Morrison's Batman run. Little dude is friggin' hilarious.
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Old November 12 2010, 02:25 AM   #24
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Lil' Matches Malone. 'nuff said about Damien. He's probably my favorite character in comics right now.
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Old November 12 2010, 02:47 AM   #25
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

If this had been Batman 3D, they would've cast Kelly Brook as Talia and Diora Baird as Selena.
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Old November 12 2010, 02:50 AM   #26
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Another female character we missed is Zee!!! I doubt Zatanna would even be considered because of her magic use. Unless Nolan wanted to do a Prestige thing with her.
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Old November 12 2010, 03:28 AM   #27
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
Another female character we missed is Zee!!! I doubt Zatanna would even be considered because of her magic use. Unless Nolan wanted to do a Prestige thing with her.


Ok, I'd watch that.
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Old November 12 2010, 03:29 AM   #28
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

I'd be thrilled if Zee was in but doubt it.
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Old November 12 2010, 03:32 AM   #29
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Yeah, I didn't even consider Zatanna, although I like her character a lot. Never really considered her a Bat-family character. But also, she's so broken that it's hard enough to put her in a comic book with Supermen and Captain Marvels, let alone a semi-realist movie whose most super person is Bats.
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Old November 12 2010, 03:33 AM   #30
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

I think a good male villain/ally in conflict would be Superman...imagine that film.
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