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Old March 23 2011, 04:35 AM   #91
Bishop76
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

House Atreides was the only one that came close to being readable, the other ones were so far off base they were painful to read. I haven't read past the House books because they were so bad it just wasn't worth it.
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Old March 23 2011, 04:43 AM   #92
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

Bishop76 wrote: View Post
Wow, that's the first time I've heard someone admit to liking the prequel novels...
I liked the House series for the most part. I really liked House Atreides. House Harkonnen was just okay, but could've been much better, and I thought House Corrino was a decent wrap up. I enjoyed the look back and the fleshing out of the backstories of many characters including Baron Harkonnen and Shaddam IV.

I couldn't get into the Butlerian Jihad, nor the two that followed Chapterhouse. I've read half of Paul of Dune and I liked it so far, but haven't finished it.

Perhaps I just like the characters from the first three original Dune books. I also enjoyed how the prequels added more of a role for Irulan. Granted, the prequels weren't as deep as Frank Herbert's works, but in many ways I found them more accessible. I also liked many of the little quotes heading the chapters.
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Old March 23 2011, 05:20 AM   #93
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

Their finale to the original series was shite. Hated it...
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Old March 23 2011, 05:21 PM   #94
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

When it comes to Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's books, I actually don't mind them.

The House trilogy is pretty decent. House Atreides was excellent. House Harkonnen suffers from "middle syndrome." But I thought House Corrino was awesome!

The Jihad trilogy was rather underwhelming. The Butlerina Jihad itself was an excellent book, but The Machine Crusade and The Battle of Corrin were pretty forgettable.

Hunters of Dune was a fine book, while Sandworms of Dune was okay but took too long to get to the point.

Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune were actually surpringly enjoyable given my initial fears that they would be a prequel too far.
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Old March 24 2011, 05:55 PM   #95
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

Hope you can excuse/forgive my noob ignorance *facepalm*

I've never read the LoTR books but enjoyed the film trilogy for what it was: epic fantasy, with good characters, acting, sfx, etc. I'm sure probably missed something by not having read them but frankly not that bothered.

Same for Dune. First saw the miniseries, which I did find confusing and I must say a little 'cheesy' (esp in costumes, acting, backdrops, etc). Then Children of Dune, which I think was a HUGE improvement. Better directed and shot, better fx, better cast (Krige as Jessica) and loved the main actors as Alia, Leto and Ghanima(sp?). And Irulan I'd also read a lot in interim about the Lynch Dune, so have seen several versions of that. I can understand why people say the original TV series more faithful (because it has more time?), but visually and thematically I thought the Lynch version vastly superior, even given its age. In a parallel universe I'd love to see an epic film or TV series that combines the best elements of Lynch's Dune and the CoD series. But more than anything, the ending of CoD really made me want to see more. I was fascinated by what Leto was undergoing, and the political powerplay and feel left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Yeah, I can read the book, I know. Anyway, I've googled stuff on God Emperor, and I'm still bemused why people thinks it's unfilmable. I personally don't think any book is unfilmable. People have said that about a lot of books. All it needs is the time, dedication and talent to get it right.

Oh...(Lynch Irulan moment)...I forgot. Not bothered about a Dune remake, but agree with others here that has to be someone who has style, and can balance character/acting with sfx.
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Old March 25 2011, 03:24 AM   #96
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

The Lynch movie suffers mostly from being too short to properly serve the story. But aside from that, there are certain issues that defy logic. First and foremost, why the hell are the stillsuits black? That has got to be really uncomfortable on a desert planet. And where they hell is the head gear the books mention? People's heads sweat, seems like a waste of moisture to me. And finally, the less said about the ending the better.
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Old March 25 2011, 04:41 AM   #97
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

While admittedly Lynch Dune has some really fine moments, it's hard for me to count all the ways it totally fucked up. Yes, it was too short, by which I mean it didn't cover all of what it should have, but also it took too many liberties, almost all of them unnecessary. A lot of the unnecessary embellishments, certainly at least 30 minutes, and maybe even up to an hour, could have been cut from the get-go to save money, and development and running time, in order to focus on interesting stuff from the book that was dropped, and not to mention better effects.

Instead of the flying bricks that they were in the film, I wanted the ornithopters to look more like this:
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Old March 25 2011, 05:39 PM   #98
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
First and foremost, why the hell are the stillsuits black? That has got to be really uncomfortable on a desert planet. And where they hell is the head gear the books mention? People's heads sweat, seems like a waste of moisture to me. And finally, the less said about the ending the better.
I loved the design of Lynch stillsuits and assumed they were black because looked cool Better looking than tv ones. And I liked touch that Kynes and other Fremen ones more sandy as more worn. Assume also had no headgear as again just looked cool and can see actors. Though I do concede that yes, for practical purposes in sustained deep desert should have been totally covered. But iirc there are quite a few scenes in tv versions where uncovered also?

As for Lynch ending, I know from tv series that's controversial as not in book. But I can just about buy it as: 1) the film self-contained story with no sequel due so gives sense of Paul's super-awesomeness, and fulfills the story element of changing the face of Arrakis. The fact rain comes ex-decades/centuries later doesn't bother me here It provides closure here.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
While admittedly Lynch Dune has some really fine moments, it's hard for me to count all the ways it totally fucked up. Yes, it was too short, by which I mean it didn't cover all of what it should have, but also it took too many liberties, almost all of them unnecessary. A lot of the unnecessary embellishments, certainly at least 30 minutes, and maybe even up to an hour, could have been cut from the get-go to save money, and development and running time, in order to focus on interesting stuff from the book that was dropped, and not to mention better effects.

Instead of the flying bricks that they were in the film, I wanted the ornithopters to look more like this:
I liked the ornithopters in both film and TV shows and thought quite similar in lots of ways, so assumed quite faithful to book? Although the tv show ones better simply because of technology.

I've seen a quite good 3hr fanedit of Lynch Dune which puts in quite a bit of stuff that was in the orig tv series: the spitting on floor, more Paul and the Fremen, and that made a lot more sense. I'm not sure what people generally consider the unnecessary embellishments, but I thought Lynch did quite a good job stripping what is clearly an epic story (if tv series anything to go by) down to two hours. Clearly something has to give. And like I said before, considering the age difference, there are somethings I think he just got better than tv series - the Emperor and court; the weirdness of Guild Navigator(s); the Bene Gesserit; the Mentats. Maybe it's just me, but I always felt like the director of CoD actually went back to Lynch's Dune to give it more of that atmosphere that was missing from orig tv series.

One question that's always bugged me: why are there Mentats if people have machines (Paul's 'iPads', various dune craft and spaceships). Isn't there supposed to be some sort of ban on machines?
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Old March 25 2011, 05:54 PM   #99
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

lurok wrote: View Post
I liked the ornithopters in both film and TV shows and thought quite similar in lots of ways, so assumed quite faithful to book? Although the tv show ones better simply because of technology.
An ornithopter is an aircraft that flies by flapping its wings as a bird does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithopter


One question that's always bugged me: why are there Mentats if people have machines (Paul's 'iPads', various dune craft and spaceships). Isn't there supposed to be some sort of ban on machines?
It's thinking machines that are banned. I seem to recall that exceptions are made for the limited abilities of combat training devices and storage devices used for teaching purposes.
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Old March 25 2011, 06:09 PM   #100
lurok
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
lurok wrote: View Post
I liked the ornithopters in both film and TV shows and thought quite similar in lots of ways, so assumed quite faithful to book? Although the tv show ones better simply because of technology.
An ornithopter is an aircraft that flies by flapping its wings as a bird does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithopter
thanks. Didn't realise was that literal. But I guess makes sense for a planet like Arrakis...

lurok wrote: View Post
One question that's always bugged me: why are there Mentats if people have machines (Paul's 'iPads', various dune craft and spaceships). Isn't there supposed to be some sort of ban on machines?
It's thinking machines that are banned. I seem to recall that exceptions are made for the limited abilities of combat training devices and storage devices used for teaching purposes.
So what's a thinking machine? I assume computer? So wouldn't the examples I cited above use computers, or parts thereof?
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Old March 25 2011, 06:20 PM   #101
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

lurok wrote: View Post
So what's a thinking machine? I assume computer? So wouldn't the examples I cited above use computers, or parts thereof?
When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, computers weren't built into nearly every electronic consumer product that you bought like they are now. They were hulking colossi that occupied whole floors of buildings, and required teams of people to operate them. Control systems in aircraft and production plants were generally quite simple, and usually implemented as analogue rather than digital, devices. I expect he envisaged that the latter sorts of mechanisms would be acceptable whereas machines that were designed to replicate the cognitive functions of man would not. There is the occasional muttering in the books when some Ixian device pushes the boundary.
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Old March 25 2011, 06:22 PM   #102
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

The Lynch Dune is a beautiful mess. I loved the casting and a lot of the costumes and design. Some of it was over the top but those visuals stayed with me and still do. However, it packed way too much stuff into the theatrical release. Also didn't like some of the narration devices. I enjoyed the longer cut that they used to show on Sci-Fi Channel. Perhaps it might be best to divide Dune into two movies for a theatrical release, like how Tarantino did Kill Bill.

I liked the Syfy movie miniseries a bit better. It didn't beat Lynch's in visual style, though I am glad it aimed to be different. I liked how the miniseries gave the story enough room to breathe and be told. Some of the casting was as good or better than the original. I think the Lynch Jessica looked better, but Alice Krige made for a good Jessica. I thought the Baron and Feyd were better in the miniseries (sorry Sting), but I thought Duke Leto was boring as hell. I also didn't like Stilgar in the first miniseries, but liked his replacement. I enjoyed the depiction of Irulan more in the miniseries too.

I also liked Children of Dune, though I thought the casting for Alia was weak. Also didn't like the special effects they used for the transformed Leto. But I did love how they expanded the Corrino role, the casting of Duncan, the Godfather style vengeance montage, all that was pretty cool.
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Old March 25 2011, 06:27 PM   #103
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

I enjoy the House prequels. Some people go to great lengths to hate on them, but I'm not a "Dune purist." Herbert & Anderson both admitted they received very serious death threats around 1999 when House Atreides was published, which is ridiculous to me.
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Old March 25 2011, 06:28 PM   #104
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
lurok wrote: View Post
So what's a thinking machine? I assume computer? So wouldn't the examples I cited above use computers, or parts thereof?
When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, computers weren't built into nearly every electronic consumer product that you bought like they are now. They were hulking colossi that occupied whole floors of buildings, and required teams of people to operate them. Control systems in aircraft and production plants were generally quite simple, and usually implemented as analogue rather than digital, devices. I expect he envisaged that the latter sorts of mechanisms would be acceptable whereas machines that were designed to replicate the cognitive functions of man would not. There is the occasional muttering in the books when some Ixian device pushes the boundary.
thanks again. That reinforces for me again why I like Lynch's 'period-retro/steampunk' look as consistent with that sort of society. My fear would be that a new Dune might be tempted to go for a more SW prequels kind of look

@ darkush - beautiful mess is a really good description.

If it wasn't going to be a two/three part film series, I imagine only way could really do narrative justice would be as longer mini-series. Maybe something more like 'Rome' (don't know if anyone saw that?), or the first series of BSG.
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Old March 26 2011, 02:43 AM   #105
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Re: Dune Production is In Trouble

lurok wrote: View Post
I loved the design of Lynch stillsuits and assumed they were black because looked cool Better looking than tv ones.
At least the ones in the mini were accurate to how they're described in the books.

Assume also had no headgear as again just looked cool and can see actors. Though I do concede that yes, for practical purposes in sustained deep desert should have been totally covered. But iirc there are quite a few scenes in tv versions where uncovered also?
At least they did include head gear for the stillsuits. Though, I think you are right that they do go a few scenes with their heads uncovered.

As for Lynch ending, I know from tv series that's controversial as not in book. But I can just about buy it as: 1) the film self-contained story with no sequel due so gives sense of Paul's super-awesomeness, and fulfills the story element of changing the face of Arrakis. The fact rain comes ex-decades/centuries later doesn't bother me here It provides closure here.
It just doesn't make sense that Paul has just won the day and claimed rulership over Arrakis, and blackmailed his way to ruling the known universe so now he's going to make it rain, killing the worms, destroying the spice and seeing to it no one cares about this otherwise worthless planet.
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