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Old February 8 2011, 09:18 AM   #1
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Degra's End..

I watched The Council again last night.

Degra's death is the most awful in all of Trek.

All throughout this arc you hear that Degra's choices are always with his family in mind, first to save them from Earth's future destruction of the Xindi world and then to save them from the Guardian's machinations.

His murder is incredibly violent, gory and rips your heart out that the last words he hears are that his killer will hunt down and kill his wife and children, as the blood smeared knife is pulled from Degra's chest and his eyes widen in horror and then fade to death. No other Trek death comes close to this one for awfulness and impact.
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Old February 8 2011, 11:00 AM   #2
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Re: Degra's End..

I saw this for the first time less than a week ago, and was surprised how much I cared about his death.
He started out as the enemy, and they fleshed him out into a reasonable man who lived a life just like any of the human crew, and continually went out of his way to help stop the Xindi weapon, and then he gets killed. One of the reasons I loved the entire Xindi story arc. (I meant the fact the enemy wasn't just a faceless pure evil, not the fact he died).
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Old February 8 2011, 06:56 PM   #3
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Re: Degra's End..

teacake wrote: View Post
I watched The Council again last night.

Degra's death is the most awful in all of Trek.

All throughout this arc you hear that Degra's choices are always with his family in mind, first to save them from Earth's future destruction of the Xindi world and then to save them from the Guardian's machinations.

His murder is incredibly violent, gory and rips your heart out that the last words he hears are that his killer will hunt down and kill his wife and children, as the blood smeared knife is pulled from Degra's chest and his eyes widen in horror and then fade to death. No other Trek death comes close to this one for awfulness and impact.
I agree. Degra's death was so tragic. All he wanted was to do the right thing, based on what he knew at different stages in his life. And Dolim's vow to murder his family was particularly chilling.
That's why I LOVED IT! when Archer blew him up!
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Old February 8 2011, 07:55 PM   #4
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Re: Degra's End..

It was tragic.

At the Xindi Council session at the Vegas Con last summer, Randy Oglesby and Scott MacDonald talked at great length about that scene. They'd worked together before and are friends, and they'd agreed months before that Dolim was eventually going to kill Degra. They also talked about the backstory of the characters, and how Degra's family was an important addition.

MacDonald said that, as he was walking down that long walkway thingie, the Imperial Death march was playing in his head.

I find it interesting that both characters are, in a way, reflections of Archer. Degra starts out by doing something awful for the right reasons (to save his planet, he believes), and ends up doing the right thing for the same reason. It's the opposite of Archer's arc, as he ends up doing bad things for what he believes are good reasons. Dolim, on the other hand, has Archer's devotion to his mission. As Scott MacDonald said, "he's a battering ram." What if the Future Aliens (I forgot what they're called) were right, and Earth did destroy the Xindi? Archer would have been as evil as Dolim.
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Old February 9 2011, 12:32 AM   #5
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Re: Degra's End..

I attended that session.
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Old February 9 2011, 10:16 AM   #6
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Re: Degra's End..

shatnertage wrote: View Post
It was tragic.

At the Xindi Council session at the Vegas Con last summer, Randy Oglesby and Scott MacDonald talked at great length about that scene. They'd worked together before and are friends, and they'd agreed months before that Dolim was eventually going to kill Degra. They also talked about the backstory of the characters, and how Degra's family was an important addition.

MacDonald said that, as he was walking down that long walkway thingie, the Imperial Death march was playing in his head.

I find it interesting that both characters are, in a way, reflections of Archer. Degra starts out by doing something awful for the right reasons (to save his planet, he believes), and ends up doing the right thing for the same reason. It's the opposite of Archer's arc, as he ends up doing bad things for what he believes are good reasons. Dolim, on the other hand, has Archer's devotion to his mission. As Scott MacDonald said, "he's a battering ram." What if the Future Aliens (I forgot what they're called) were right, and Earth did destroy the Xindi? Archer would have been as evil as Dolim.
That was very interesting, thank you for posting it!

As I've been watching this arc I keep thinking.. wow, this is really great Trek on so many levels. I feel sorry for people who never got to enjoy this quality of Trek because they gave up on ENT after a few dull first season eps.
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Old February 9 2011, 02:02 PM   #7
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Re: Degra's End..

teacake wrote: View Post
As I've been watching this arc I keep thinking.. wow, this is really great Trek on so many levels. I feel sorry for people who never got to enjoy this quality of Trek because they gave up on ENT after a few dull first season eps.
You're absolutely right. And it's really a pity that the show got canceled just when it was getting good.

I've also just finished rewatching the Xindi arc and I must say I was impressed with the quality of most of the stories. To me, the best things about the Xindi saga were the "new" Archer and the character of Degra. Degra gave depth and meaning to the whole Xindi conflict. I respected his willingness to listen to what Archer had to say, acknowledge the truth and eventually help Archer in his endeavor to save his planet. Degra chose to do the right thing and paid the ultimate price for it, and that's probably the most saddening aspect of his death.
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Old February 9 2011, 02:50 PM   #8
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Re: Degra's End..

teacake wrote: View Post
Degra's death is the most awful in all of Trek.
Depends on the meaning of "awful" --it was tragic, not a very "quick and painless" one and he had to die with a scary thought in mind... but as a scene that made us pity the character, see again how nasty Dolim was, etc., it was effectively well done.
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Old February 9 2011, 03:29 PM   #9
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Re: Degra's End..

Alienesse wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
As I've been watching this arc I keep thinking.. wow, this is really great Trek on so many levels. I feel sorry for people who never got to enjoy this quality of Trek because they gave up on ENT after a few dull first season eps.
You're absolutely right. And it's really a pity that the show got canceled just when it was getting good.

I've also just finished rewatching the Xindi arc and I must say I was impressed with the quality of most of the stories. To me, the best things about the Xindi saga were the "new" Archer and the character of Degra. Degra gave depth and meaning to the whole Xindi conflict. I respected his willingness to listen to what Archer had to say, acknowledge the truth and eventually help Archer in his endeavor to save his planet. Degra chose to do the right thing and paid the ultimate price for it, and that's probably the most saddening aspect of his death.
I'm watching ENT for the first time and just finished season 3. The first 2 seasons were alright, but nothing really jumped out, but the entirety of season 3 was a great arc from start to finish, and didn't feel as reliant on past series.
And they spent a lot of time developing the Xindi races, and establishing their motivations, and creating many of these characters to be good people doing what they thought was right, rather than just a generic new bad guy.
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Old February 10 2011, 01:01 AM   #10
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Re: Degra's End..

Yep the Xindi are an excellent race! I always want to know more about them, very interesting how they are bound together yet so very different. And the Avians.. and fascinating that they can all understand each other. I wonder if the language areas of their brains are highly developed. You get these interesting glimpses.. Dolim sunbaking with sun lamps. The insectoids only living a few years and yet lengthening their names the older they get. The slow, visual Aquatics, the natural bond of the humanoids (primates might be a better word) and the aboreals. So much more than generic bad guys.. in fact the whole Expanse is full of interesting stuff.

I also liked the "new" Archer. His piracy and desperation makes perfect sense, the whole of earth is at stake. I like that they keep the lamenting over dropped ideals to a minimum in Season 3. In Season 4 Archer also seems quicker to make decisions and to be looking to Starfleet for moral guidelines less. Who knows if there had been a season 5 he may have morphed into even more of his own man, Kirk style.

BlobVanDam I hope you like season 4. It's a change of pace from the one long arc but it does contain many mini arcs which are very well done. The show was really using the story arcs well, just what DS9 fans always trumpet as a reason DS9 was superior. It's a shame so many never even watched seasons 3 and 4.
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Old February 10 2011, 11:21 AM   #11
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Re: Degra's End..

teacake wrote: View Post
I also liked the "new" Archer. His piracy and desperation makes perfect sense, the whole of earth is at stake. I like that they keep the lamenting over dropped ideals to a minimum in Season 3.
Yes, it did make sense, which is why the story was so engaging. I appreciated the fact that the writers took chances with the character and made him face some tough choices that went against the Federation moral standards established in other series. Given the seriousness of the situation, I think it was very realistic to have the Captain deal with moral dilemmas and step over the ethical boundaries that Starfleet normally upholds, because sometimes survival requires doing just that. It was great that they acknowledge that fact and infused the show with some real drama. I have to admire Archer's courage to do whatever needed to be done in order to save Earth and, in spite of certain misgivings over Scott Bakula's adequacy for the role, I think the Xindi arc made for some powerful performances on his part.
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Old February 11 2011, 02:27 AM   #12
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Re: Degra's End..

I thought Degra's death cruel, and Reptillian Guy's last words to him chilling. I can't imagine much worse than dying terrified for your family's well-being.

The Xindi season is my favourite in all of Trek, and I thought the Xindi themselves were great aliens. It's a shame they didn't follow up at all in season four (or even in the later novels). It would have been cool to see them join the Coalition of Planets, or at least send a humanoid or sloth representative for the big conference in "Demons"

But I must admit, the most tragic Trek death for me is Amanda in STXI. It was like a kick in the gut - so much so, it didn't really sink in that all of Vulcan died with her until the two Spocks were talking at the end. I guess it wasn't really anything too special, but it really got me.
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Old February 11 2011, 02:47 AM   #13
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Re: Degra's End..

"The Council" is my favorite episode in my favorite season of ENT, which doesn't make it my favorite episode in the series but that's still a pretty high bar. And Degra's death is a huge reason for it. Just so well-done in the emotional department.
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Old February 11 2011, 05:02 AM   #14
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Re: Degra's End..

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I thought Degra's death cruel, and Reptillian Guy's last words to him chilling. I can't imagine much worse than dying terrified for your family's well-being.

The Xindi season is my favourite in all of Trek, and I thought the Xindi themselves were great aliens. It's a shame they didn't follow up at all in season four (or even in the later novels). It would have been cool to see them join the Coalition of Planets, or at least send a humanoid or sloth representative for the big conference in "Demons"

But I must admit, the most tragic Trek death for me is Amanda in STXI. It was like a kick in the gut - so much so, it didn't really sink in that all of Vulcan died with her until the two Spocks were talking at the end. I guess it wasn't really anything too special, but it really got me.
Well we've known Amanda a long time. She was also very sympathetically played in ST:XI, it really did hurt to lose her.. great momentum in that whole sequence, the landscape, Amanda and then the entire planet.

Jeff O'Connor wrote: View Post
"The Council" is my favorite episode in my favorite season of ENT, which doesn't make it my favorite episode in the series but that's still a pretty high bar. And Degra's death is a huge reason for it. Just so well-done in the emotional department.
What's your favorite ep in the series? Mine is E2, though I wouldn't say it's the best ep, just my favorite.
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Old February 11 2011, 06:50 AM   #15
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Re: Degra's End..

It's kind of a toss-up between a couple of fourth-season episodes right now. Things may change when I get to rewatching, of course.

Anyway, "Kir'Shara" and "United". Not exactly original thoughts, I know. :P
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