Minecraft

[Iasius]

AdmiralGarak wrote:

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Oh man. The trick of placing ladders only on every other block doesn't work anymore? That's going to take some time fixing all of those ladders.

I've actually placed all my ladders on every block before the patch. I just liked the look better.

[AdmiralGarak]

It looks better, but it's also double the amount of time chopping down trees to make the crapload of sticks you'll need.

[Cutter John]

Yikes, has anyone else noticed a buff in the mobs? I went into an underground cave and got destroyed by an army of skeletons and creepers. Lost a lot of good equipment.

[Kimi3013]

A note on complaining about the updates breaking the server mods and stuff. Notch CANNOT work with the people that make it. What they're doing at the moment is technically illegal as they're hacking, modifying and redistributing code that he created and is selling. Should he work with them he'd be effectively saying (in the eyes of the law) that it's ok for people to pirate his game. Notch cannot support mods in anyway right now.

Once there's an addon API (which isn't a small task, it could be a massive undertaking as the game wasn't originally made with one in mind) then maybe he'll work with them a bit, and updates should be more stable at that point so there'll be less issues.

[judge alba]

got rained on



lasted for quite awhile when i was out getting wood

[Cutter John]

^^ Lucky bastard.

Damn, just when I start getting my texturepack stablized they release a 1.5_01 bug fix and the game crashes when I try to run it. Maybe I should just wait til the weekend to play.

Lord I forgot how ugly the plain vanilla textures were.

[B.J.]

AdmiralGarak wrote:

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It looks better, but it's also double the amount of time chopping down trees to make the crapload of sticks you'll need.

I thought as a compensation, the crafting to make a ladder now makes two?

[Robert Maxwell]

AdmiralGarak wrote:

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It looks better, but it's also double the amount of time chopping down trees to make the crapload of sticks you'll need.

Actually, the ladder recipe now yields 2 ladders, not just one, so you aren't any worse off. You can get by with the exact same number of sticks, you just have to place the ladders on every block.

Kimi3013 wrote:

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A note on complaining about the updates breaking the server mods and stuff. Notch CANNOT work with the people that make it. What they're doing at the moment is technically illegal as they're hacking, modifying and redistributing code that he created and is selling. Should he work with them he'd be effectively saying (in the eyes of the law) that it's ok for people to pirate his game. Notch cannot support mods in anyway right now.

This is actually not true. Notch doesn't have a problem with people modding the game, and it is in fact perfectly legal as long as you aren't redistributing the Minecraft.jar or its contents. There were some mods that only worked using that method. Most mods, however use patching tools to insert code and data into a legitimate Minecraft.jar, which is perfectly legal. You just wouldn't be allowed to distribute the modified jar file (or the unmodified one, in any case.)

It's true there is no official mod support at the moment, but that doesn't mean existing mods are illegal.

I won't argue that CraftBukkit itself is legal, though. It is known to be based on decompiled/reverse-engineered server code. But it doesn't seem like too many people actually run the vanilla server, either, so if you want to run a featureful server you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place, as the vanilla server just doesn't provide enough functionality.

Notch seems to have little regard for modders, which is a shame, as modding is what will give this game a lot of longevity.

Anyway, anyone who is on my server should downgrade to 1.4 if you still want to play on it. I haven't updated at home yet so that's what I'm going to do. There's no word yet on when CraftBukkit will be updated--the developers have not committed to a date. So, now we play the waiting game...

I'm tempted to just set up a vanilla server on my VPS and see how well that works.

[Kimi3013]

I didn't say he had a problem with the mods, there's evidence of the opposite in the fact they're making the API and he's said he doesn't mind them before. There's a bit of a grey area with inserting to code into a legit .jar, it's still decompiling his code and such, but definitely not flat out illegal like redistribution. I believe he's also said he doesn't like the hacking, but that he's not going to go after the modders in the past. Not being able support it doesn't mean he's actively against it.

Still, he can't go about helping the modders right now as he can't support hacking of his product. It's akin to Honda telling people how to install a NOS system on their cars or offering help installing it, it's just not going to happen.


And yeah, loads of servers use CraftBukkit and that makes patch days suck. I've got no idea what a vanilla server offers in the way of management tools against CraftBukkit as I've never needed to work on that side of things, but I assume that the vanilla tools leave a lot to be desired in comparison. API will fix it, once that's in place I would assume that Notch would be able to open a dialog with the CraftBukkit guys to help get them the tools they need into the API.


Also, I don't see how you can say he's got little regard for modders when he's actively working on the API that is for modders to use to make mods to run in his game. An API is a massive boost to the ability for mods to run, be created, and be stable between updates. It's what the games NEEDS if you want mods to be extend the life of the game. There was the password steeling mode a little while back; that can't happen with the API. You really need to trust the source of the mod right now, it's easy to have them execute arbitrary code on your system, API solves that problem.

Currently these mods work by changing the games code directly, and each patch changes the code. You can't work with a ball of chain keeping you from changing the code the modders use, it's just not possible. He's not breaking them on purpose, it just happens when he's doing his job of developing his game. Once you've got the supported API there, you'll be calling commands from that which will already be updated to run.



It's really all boils doing to the API. He's working on it, once it's here everything will be good and everyone can be happy.

[Robert Maxwell]

Kimi3013 wrote:

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I didn't say he had a problem with the mods, there's evidence of the opposite in the fact they're making the API and he's said he doesn't mind them before. There's a bit of a grey area with inserting to code into a legit .jar, it's still decompiling his code and such, but definitely not flat out illegal like redistribution. I believe he's also said he doesn't like the hacking, but that he's not going to go after the modders in the past. Not being able support it doesn't mean he's actively against it.

Actually, there is nothing whatsoever illegal about modifying the jar. The way these mods are distributed, there is no official Minecraft code included and thus no copyright infringement. You can modify your copy of minecraft.jar to your heart's content--you just cannot legally distribute it to anyone. What you're probably thinking of is boilerplate EULA language that says you're not permitted to modify or reverse-engineer software you've purchased. Minecraft, as far as I know, comes with no such legalese, and doing such things for your personal use is perfectly legal as long as you're not running afoul of a EULA or redistributing assets to which you do not hold the copyright.

Still, he can't go about helping the modders right now as he can't support hacking of his product. It's akin to Honda telling people how to install a NOS system on their cars or offering help installing it, it's just not going to happen.

That doesn't even make sense. Just because mods are unofficial doesn't mean they're illegal. And, in fact, Notch has ported back several mods into Minecraft itself, so he is clearly working with the modding community in that regard. Are you implying he'd get in some kind of hot water if he actively worked with any mod developers? This is untrue.

And yeah, loads of servers use CraftBukkit and that makes patch days suck. I've got no idea what a vanilla server offers in the way of management tools against CraftBukkit as I've never needed to work on that side of things, but I assume that the vanilla tools leave a lot to be desired in comparison. API will fix it, once that's in place I would assume that Notch would be able to open a dialog with the CraftBukkit guys to help get them the tools they need into the API.

An API for server wrappers would be awesome.

Also, I don't see how you can say he's got little regard for modders when he's actively working on the API that is for modders to use to make mods to run in his game. An API is a massive boost to the ability for mods to run, be created, and be stable between updates. It's what the games NEEDS if you want mods to be extend the life of the game. There was the password steeling mode a little while back; that can't happen with the API. You really need to trust the source of the mod right now, it's easy to have them execute arbitrary code on your system, API solves that problem.

Maybe I've missed something but I haven't actually seen any evidence of this mod API. It's been talked about (for many months) but as far as I'm aware there is no official mod API built into Minecraft right now, beyond the custom texture pack options.

Currently these mods work by changing the games code directly, and each patch changes the code. You can't work with a ball of chain keeping you from changing the code the modders use, it's just not possible. He's not breaking them on purpose, it just happens when he's doing his job of developing his game. Once you've got the supported API there, you'll be calling commands from that which will already be updated to run.

I never said he was breaking them on purpose or that the way mods are currently being done is ideal. But because there is no transparency and no mod API, lots of things get broken every time there's an update.

It's really all boils doing to the API. He's working on it, once it's here everything will be good and everyone can be happy.

I'll wait to pass judgment on this until 1.6. Notch claims a mod API is to be a focus of the next version, so we'll see.

I actually don't use any client-side mods precisely because too many things get broken and I don't want to be left with an unplayable world. The server breakages are far more irritating since the vast majority of servers are using wrappers like CraftBukkit.

[Lindley]

Robert Maxwell wrote:

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And, in fact, Notch has ported back several mods into Minecraft itself, so he is clearly working with the modding community in that regard.

I wonder. It was mentioned some time ago that this game has made millions of dollars in profit. If those mods are indeed being incorporated into the game, is there any royalty being paid to the original modders for the concept?

[Kimi3013]

I poked about looking for a EULA, I had just assumed that there was one when I paid for it as there normally is one. Revers engineering stuff is normally there, but turns out there's no EULA but there some words from Notch saying you can make your mods, just no distribution of his code. That does change things.

If I was him I'd still not be wanting to work directly with the modders as you could still get into awkward legal spots down the line should need to go after a project you had worked with (and thus approved of) for distributed the code. It's not that there's a problem with him working with them, more it could weaken his position if it ever came up.



I don't think there's any evidence of the API, you've just got to trust the developers on it. There may be some hooks added into the code itself that's released, but I don't look at that to know. We've paid for an unfinished game that my never be released, so we must be trusting them already to get the job done really.

As for transparency, it doesn't have happen until there's an API for me. Right now people are just doing whatever, and know that an API is on the way so you're asking to be bitten in my eyes.

Still, it would be great if CraftBukkit didn't have to break every week. The guy who was hosting the server I used to play on got sick of it and has given up running the server until things levelled out.

[Robert Maxwell]

Kimi3013 wrote:

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I poked about looking for a EULA, I had just assumed that there was one when I paid for it as there normally is one. Revers engineering stuff is normally there, but turns out there's no EULA but there some words from Notch saying you can make your mods, just no distribution of his code. That does change things.

Yeah, and I think the "no distribution of code" caveat is fair enough. That's pretty standard.

If I was him I'd still not be wanting to work directly with the modders as you could still get into awkward legal spots down the line should need to go after a project you had worked with (and thus approved of) for distributed the code. It's not that there's a problem with him working with them, more it could weaken his position if it ever came up.

Copyright law does not work that way. Mojang can assist any mod project they want to and make that contingent on respecting Minecraft's copyrights. If they assist a project which later violates copyright law, Mojang is not suddenly in a weakened position because of that unless they actually authorized such redistribution.

I don't think there's any evidence of the API, you've just got to trust the developers on it. There may be some hooks added into the code itself that's released, but I don't look at that to know. We've paid for an unfinished game that my never be released, so we must be trusting them already to get the job done really.

But if there was a mod API, we wouldn't have to rely on Mojang to finish everything.

As for transparency, it doesn't have happen until there's an API for me. Right now people are just doing whatever, and know that an API is on the way so you're asking to be bitten in my eyes.

Still, it would be great if CraftBukkit didn't have to break every week. The guy who was hosting the server I used to play on got sick of it and has given up running the server until things levelled out.

Yeah, I am probably going to run a vanilla server for the moment, since I don't seem to have any other options and there's no clear word on when there will be a Bukkit update.

[Iasius]

Yay for shift click to move items to inventory/chests! Funnily enough, I was just looking for such a mod and discovered in that mod's thread that it was recently implemented in Minecraft.

Also, I've been using the Java 7 beta. It seems to run much faster than with Java 6.

[Kimi3013]

Yeah, that's been needed for ages. A random thing I found just now is that if you crouch when you're on a ladder, you slide down. Is that new or has it been there for ages?