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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: How would you rate Zero Sum Game?
Outstanding 38 22.22%
Above Average 78 45.61%
Average 45 26.32%
Below Average 8 4.68%
Poor 2 1.17%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 25 2011, 04:42 AM   #571
Bishop76
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Yeah, I think we were watching a character change in ZSG. I seem to remember the novel starting off with Bashir seeming generally unhappy with life at DS9 and having a hard time dealing with the changes that had happened there over the years since the show ended. He seems almost depressed at the beginning. I could see someone in that funk grabbing onto something that makes him happy and doing anything to keep that happiness in his life.
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Old January 25 2011, 04:45 AM   #572
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Do we need spoiler tags for a televised episode from twelve years ago???
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Old January 26 2011, 04:36 PM   #573
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, yes, that is my point -- that the book shows Bashir undergoing a change from the Bashir we knew. People can change, especially when they're in love. Since Bashir is in love with Sarina, he let her talk him into doing something he never would've contemplated otherwise.
Ok i suppose that is plausible. I just dont see its likely.
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Old January 26 2011, 04:57 PM   #574
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^If fiction were only about likely things, it'd be a lot duller. How likely is it that when Kirk went back into the past, the woman he fell in love with would just happen to be the linchpin figure whose death was necessary to prevent Hitler's victory?
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Old January 26 2011, 04:59 PM   #575
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I think that's a different thing entirely, I think what a lot of people are talking about here is emotional truth not scientific probability. Kirk traveling in time, fine no problem. Kirk is revealed as a wife-beater or a pedeophile, not fine.

That's why I think TNES is one of the better Trek books of the last decade as it (to me) features real emotional truth about how people behave and react, rather than soapy like twists, it has a ring of universal truth that most modern trek lacks.
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Old January 26 2011, 05:20 PM   #576
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, I think it's perfectly in character for Bashir to be susceptible to letting a woman he loves convince him to reconsider some of his values. He's always been a feckless romantic. And we have it from Alexander Siddig himself that Bashir was never intended or asserted to be an absolute pacifist. He's a military physician, someone whose job was to save lives but who accepted the occasional military necessity of taking them.

The way I interpreted it when I read the book is this: Bashir is a perfectionist. He prides himself on his ability to excel at any task he undertakes. He throws himself into every such undertaking with wholehearted enthusiasm. So once he reoriented himself to the mentality that he was on a mission where killing the enemy might be necessary for the greater good, he became as wholehearted about embracing that as he does about everything else, and thus maybe got a little carried away with it.

Yes, it seems out of character, but consider that Julian Bashir has always been a roleplayer. Most of his life has been a lie, a carefully constructed fiction to conceal his true nature from those around him. So it's not implausible that he'd be able and willing to reinvent himself, to create a new persona and identity. If you showed me a story where Leonard McCoy becomes a cold-blooded license-to-kill secret agent, I'd dismiss it as a complete absurdity. But I can buy Julian Bashir reinventing himself that way, because the Julian Bashir we knew was basically a construct to begin with.
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Old January 26 2011, 05:31 PM   #577
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

therealparsnip wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, yes, that is my point -- that the book shows Bashir undergoing a change from the Bashir we knew. People can change, especially when they're in love. Since Bashir is in love with Sarina, he let her talk him into doing something he never would've contemplated otherwise.
Ok i suppose that is plausible. I just dont see its likely.
Oh yeah...it's likely....women make men do stupid things in the name of love all the time that's un-characteristic.....marriage for one
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Old January 26 2011, 05:40 PM   #578
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, I think it's perfectly in character for Bashir to be susceptible to letting a woman he loves convince him to reconsider some of his values. He's always been a feckless romantic. And we have it from Alexander Siddig himself that Bashir was never intended or asserted to be an absolute pacifist. He's a military physician, someone whose job was to save lives but who accepted the occasional military necessity of taking them.

The way I interpreted it when I read the book is this: Bashir is a perfectionist. He prides himself on his ability to excel at any task he undertakes. He throws himself into every such undertaking with wholehearted enthusiasm. So once he reoriented himself to the mentality that he was on a mission where killing the enemy might be necessary for the greater good, he became as wholehearted about embracing that as he does about everything else, and thus maybe got a little carried away with it.

Yes, it seems out of character, but consider that Julian Bashir has always been a roleplayer. Most of his life has been a lie, a carefully constructed fiction to conceal his true nature from those around him. So it's not implausible that he'd be able and willing to reinvent himself, to create a new persona and identity. If you showed me a story where Leonard McCoy becomes a cold-blooded license-to-kill secret agent, I'd dismiss it as a complete absurdity. But I can buy Julian Bashir reinventing himself that way, because the Julian Bashir we knew was basically a construct to begin with.
You talk a good game but I simply don't buy it (well literally in my case )
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Old January 26 2011, 06:58 PM   #579
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^So be it. Different readers take different things away from a series, and perceive the characters in different ways.
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Old January 26 2011, 07:25 PM   #580
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, I think it's perfectly in character for Bashir to be susceptible to letting a woman he loves convince him to reconsider some of his values. He's always been a feckless romantic. And we have it from Alexander Siddig himself that Bashir was never intended or asserted to be an absolute pacifist. He's a military physician, someone whose job was to save lives but who accepted the occasional military necessity of taking them.

The way I interpreted it when I read the book is this: Bashir is a perfectionist. He prides himself on his ability to excel at any task he undertakes. He throws himself into every such undertaking with wholehearted enthusiasm. So once he reoriented himself to the mentality that he was on a mission where killing the enemy might be necessary for the greater good, he became as wholehearted about embracing that as he does about everything else, and thus maybe got a little carried away with it.

Yes, it seems out of character, but consider that Julian Bashir has always been a roleplayer. Most of his life has been a lie, a carefully constructed fiction to conceal his true nature from those around him. So it's not implausible that he'd be able and willing to reinvent himself, to create a new persona and identity. If you showed me a story where Leonard McCoy becomes a cold-blooded license-to-kill secret agent, I'd dismiss it as a complete absurdity. But I can buy Julian Bashir reinventing himself that way, because the Julian Bashir we knew was basically a construct to begin with.
Julian may have been a construct but that doesn't mean he was shallow. He had real feelings. When he was trying to cure the Jem'Hadar of their addiction to White, his feeling were genuine. His conflict with O'Brien was genuine. Just because he had constructed a persona doesn't mean that it didn't have a foundation. Was his outrage at what S-31 was doing to the Founders a lie?
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Old January 27 2011, 03:19 AM   #581
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
^If fiction were only about likely things, it'd be a lot duller. How likely is it that when Kirk went back into the past, the woman he fell in love with would just happen to be the linchpin figure whose death was necessary to prevent Hitler's victory?
Come on christopher.

Its fiction which is based on hours of established character behaviour.

Bashirs behaviour is not plausible based on this history.
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Old January 27 2011, 03:25 AM   #582
kkozoriz1
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

TNG four year jump

Picard - Orion crime lord
Crusher - Creating illegal narcotics
Worf - Joined a pacifistic religion
Lil Picard - Infected by last reaming Borg Nanoprobes to become the Borg king.
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Old January 27 2011, 04:52 AM   #583
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

TOS two year jump

Kirk - Flying a desk
Spock - At a Vulcan monastery
McCoy - Proving that disco lives forever
Chekov - Head of security, despite still screaming like a girl
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Old January 27 2011, 06:15 AM   #584
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

therealparsnip wrote: View Post
Come on christopher.

Its fiction which is based on hours of established character behaviour.

Bashirs behaviour is not plausible based on this history.
You didn't say "not plausible" before, you said "not likely." (Wait, actually you did say it was plausible in that post, so you're directly contradicting yourself now.) I agree it's not likely that Bashir would go this route. But he was placed in an unlikely enough set of circumstances that he was subject to being manipulated into it, despite the low probability of it. I'm not saying it's something he would've done spontaneously, something that would've happened under normal circumstances. I agree that it is out of character for the man we've known. But I recognize that there are circumstances that can change people's character, that can make them start to think and act in ways they never would have before. And this is a circumstance where Bashir was skillfully and intelligently manipulated into changing his behavior. Unlikely things can be made to happen if enough skill and care are applied to making them happen. People can be manipulated, conditioned, brainwashed to act in uncharacteristic ways. That's what's happened to Bashir in this book. The whole point is that he's being made to act out of character. Sarina used his feelings for her and the circumstances of the mission to manipulate him into starting to change his way of thinking about certain things, and that's the first step in molding him into the person Section 31 wants him to be.
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Old January 27 2011, 07:13 PM   #585
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Of course...this is all based on the assumption that Julian's feelings for Sarina amount to "love", as opposed to a desperate crush, as Ezri suggested in the book....
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