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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: How would you rate Zero Sum Game?
Outstanding 39 22.41%
Above Average 78 44.83%
Average 47 27.01%
Below Average 8 4.60%
Poor 2 1.15%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 19 2010, 09:34 AM   #331
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
<SNIP>

Now.

Tell me.

Is that a truly immoral thing?
If these CIA agents have the clear and easy option to keep these unarmed civilians alive, a fact that would not affect in the least the chances of success of their mission, then yes, Sci, IT IS A TRULY IMMORAL THING.,
Dude, you're blowing the damn thing up. It's pretty obvious that there are going to be at least a few, if not many, civilian deaths.
Dude, just because in war collateral victims are sometimes unavoidable does NOT mean it's OK to MURDER peopole FOR THE LULZ, GRATUITOUSLY, when you can easily avoid killing.
Because 'it's war and one must be tough' or some other non-sense like that. When he murdered those civilians for the lulz, Bashir sunk to the level of serial killers, sociopathic creeps - the lowest scum humanity ever produced.

Killing gratuitously is a WAR CRIME - and there's absolutely NO moral justification for it - not even in espionage and war.

And did Bashir have the clear and easy option to keep those unarmed civilians alive? He was entering a room he could not see before he entered, did not know how many people would be in the room, and who would be armed, nor could he risk being captured or subdued or allowing them to call security even if they were unarmed.
YES, Bashir DID have a clear and easy option to keep those unarmed civilians alive.
Simply put his weapon on stun. In 'star trek', a weapon on 'stun' is just as easy to use as a weapon on 'kill' - a fact established multiple times. And, as ZSG itself establishes - repeatedly -, 'stun' is effective against breen.
Also, for the purposes of his mission, those civilians being unconscious or dead was the same thing - during the endgame, those civilians would be out of the game.

You and ProtoAvatar are hysterical. Like there can ever be moral absolutes in the world of espionage.

Have you even read your own posts, Sci - filled with feeble excuses meant to justify GRATUITOUS MURDER?
You're talking about yourself.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; November 19 2010 at 11:09 AM.
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Old November 19 2010, 06:17 PM   #332
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
Really? Belligerent speech is enough to provoke that sort of thing? No ambiguity there whatsoever?
If such speech is simultaneous with cetain postures--such as the nuclear buildup, or the Breen's theft of the slipstream device--of course!

You and ProtoAvatar are hysterical.
Hey--you don't see me exploding like he just did.

Like there can ever be moral absolutes in the world of espionage.
Sometimes there are. Other times call for more "grey".

All I did was give you a straight answer, Sci. Trying to act as the "middle of the road" between, say, me and ProtoAvatar seems to result in your saying there are no answers...which begs the question of why you asked in the first place.
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Old November 20 2010, 01:08 AM   #333
Sci
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
All I did was give you a straight answer, Sci. Trying to act as the "middle of the road" between, say, me and ProtoAvatar seems to result in your saying there are no answers...which begs the question of why you asked in the first place.
Because I think people don't like to think about what I view as the reality of these sorts of situations: That the are, as you said, no real answers. That sometimes, it's just what the traffic can bear.
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Old November 20 2010, 01:53 AM   #334
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I see. Still...I think one could say that, as those like me have indeed thought it over a great deal...I'd say I can "accept" that sometimes...some pretty dark things has to be done.

As a scientist (in the area of politics), I believe that the actions in this field are to be guided by specific sets of rules--much like the laws of physics. Hobbes and Locke, I recall, were masters of the art of politics as a science.

Many of these laws, of course, concern security. And through establishing laws for my points of view, consistent with the reality of nature, I am more able to accept the consequences therof.
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Old November 20 2010, 09:31 PM   #335
Shon T'Hara
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Everyone's twisted up about Bashir's action, but doesn't anyone find it troubling that Ezri never even considered helping the Breen evacuate the ship? Blocking people trying to escape seems at least as reprehensible as shooting them in cold blood. At the very least, she should've hailed the ship and told them to lower their shields for beam-out, then made sure the ship couldn't escape the hangar. Even if she'd considered the possibility and concluded there was no way to accomplish the mission while rescuing the crew, it would've been better than just consigning the Breen to death with no second thoughts.
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Old November 20 2010, 10:12 PM   #336
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ plausible deniability. if they were never there, how could they save a bunch of breen? this was a covert op.
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Old November 21 2010, 01:23 AM   #337
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^I'd say so. Frankly, I don't think she'd even be allowed to save them--for those reasons. Had she done so, the UFP government would find it much more difficult to disavow the act.

Still...I wish Mr. Mack would have had Ezri internally acknowledge it--after all, the girl we all know from DS9 would have had a very hard time allowing people to die....
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Old November 21 2010, 02:02 AM   #338
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

His feelings for Sarina were deeper than those for Ezri? Meh... I don't buy it.
I do. His feelings for Ezri always had more to do with his feelings for Jadzia than for the woman he was actually with.
(I'm not sure I got those quote attributions correct - if not, sorry).

I think Sci is dead on here, and I was going to bring up a similar point. Julian has shown a history of falling in love with the idea of the woman who he's with, rather than the woman herself. Call that 'romanticism' or a tendency towards 'living in his head', but that is what I've seen.

He fell head over heels for Jadzia the first time he met her (on the transport to DS9), before he knew a thing about her. He fell for Ezri, apparently in large part, because she resembled his idea of Jadzia. I have a feeling he imagined Leetah was smarter than she was.

Now as to Sarina, Julian hardly had any conversation with her at all before he was back in heart-pounding love with The One. I don't think he's ever seen beyond her advanced genes. He's spun this story for himself that she's The One, and now he's happily treating her like The One. They hardly spoke to each other in the novel; it seemed like he was thinking more about her to himself than he was talking to her about who she was and who he was.

So yes, I'd say he think's he's in love with her, but really, he's in love with the idea of Sarina instead.
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Old November 21 2010, 02:09 AM   #339
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post
^ plausible deniability. if they were never there, how could they save a bunch of breen? this was a covert op.

I found the whole thing a little silly. "We aren't killing you, the exploding reactor we're pressing you up against is killing you. What do you mean, 'semantics'? Bowers, what does he mean, 'semantics'?"

They were like the pirates in the Simpsons episode (The Mansion Family) that had Homer et al. in a large net hung overboard, which they were about to cut loose, drowning Homer et al. in the sea.

"Now we will cut you loose. For liability purposes, it is the ocean that will kill you, not us."

If they were never there, then why couldn't a couple of quantum torpedoes never be there either? Meh.
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Old November 21 2010, 02:25 AM   #340
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Sisko_is_my_captain wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

His feelings for Sarina were deeper than those for Ezri? Meh... I don't buy it.
I do. His feelings for Ezri always had more to do with his feelings for Jadzia than for the woman he was actually with.
(I'm not sure I got those quote attributions correct - if not, sorry).

I think Sci is dead on here, and I was going to bring up a similar point. Julian has shown a history of falling in love with the idea of the woman who he's with, rather than the woman herself. Call that 'romanticism' or a tendency towards 'living in his head', but that is what I've seen.

He fell head over heels for Jadzia the first time he met her (on the transport to DS9), before he knew a thing about her. He fell for Ezri, apparently in large part, because she resembled his idea of Jadzia. I have a feeling he imagined Leetah was smarter than she was.

Now as to Sarina, Julian hardly had any conversation with her at all before he was back in heart-pounding love with The One. I don't think he's ever seen beyond her advanced genes. He's spun this story for himself that she's The One, and now he's happily treating her like The One. They hardly spoke to each other in the novel; it seemed like he was thinking more about her to himself than he was talking to her about who she was and who he was.

So yes, I'd say he think's he's in love with her, but really, he's in love with the idea of Sarina instead.
Sorry...but once again, Julian's interactions with Ezri were very different from his interactions with Jadzia. He may have seen her as a "second Jadzia" in that scene in "Afterimage", but Ezri shot it down.

For the rest of the show, it was different.

And again...it took an entire season for Julian to realize that he had feelings for Ezri--which is in stark contrast to his other relationships.
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Old November 21 2010, 02:32 AM   #341
Sisko_is_my_captain
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sorry...but once again, Julian's interactions with Ezri were very different from his interactions with Jadzia. He may have seen her as a "second Jadzia" in that scene in "Afterimage", but Ezri shot it down.

For the rest of the show, it was different.

And again...it took an entire season for Julian to realize that he had feelings for Ezri--which is in stark contrast to his other relationships.
I think it still goes to show that the tendency towards idealizing women exists in Julian, though. It's been a while since I watched the 7th season, but as I recall, he spent a lot of time bumbling around her, which suggests that he did have feelings for her long before he finally admitted (to himself? / to her) that he felt that way.
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Old November 21 2010, 03:16 AM   #342
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Sisko_is_my_captain wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sorry...but once again, Julian's interactions with Ezri were very different from his interactions with Jadzia. He may have seen her as a "second Jadzia" in that scene in "Afterimage", but Ezri shot it down.

For the rest of the show, it was different.

And again...it took an entire season for Julian to realize that he had feelings for Ezri--which is in stark contrast to his other relationships.
I think it still goes to show that the tendency towards idealizing women exists in Julian, though. It's been a while since I watched the 7th season, but as I recall, he spent a lot of time bumbling around her, which suggests that he did have feelings for her long before he finally admitted (to himself? / to her) that he felt that way.
He was actually a lot more confident around Ezri, after "Afterimage"--at times giving her some support, like in "Field of Fire"--until "Dogs of War". The "bumbling" only lasts for the first half of that episode.

Still...I do see your point about idealism on his part, though. However, I would say that his views towards Ezri were a bit more grounded in reality--hence, the lack of bumbling.

But one could say that this "idealism" could be a good thing. Rather than seeing women as they "are", he sees them as they "could" be. But--that's just me.
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Old November 21 2010, 05:13 AM   #343
Shon T'Hara
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post
^ plausible deniability. if they were never there, how could they save a bunch of breen? this was a covert op.
But that's exactly the cover story Bacco gave Tezrene at the end of the book-- the Aventine detected a distress call and raced in to save the day. ISTM Ezri could've forseen that and bolstered the story by actually making an attempt at rescuing the crew while surrupticiously making sure the ship itself didn't survive, instead of very physically blocking the ship from leaving the hangar in a way that the Breen might've seen if they sent any more fighters to investigate.
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Old November 21 2010, 06:10 AM   #344
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Perhaps she--or Sam--thought that, had she done so, the survivors would have spread the "true" story.
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Old November 21 2010, 09:42 AM   #345
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I voted average, the book was well written but it really didn't do anything for me.

I like Bashir & Ezri but without anyone interesting for them to bounce off they weren't as much fun as usual. Sarina was more of a plot device than an actual character and the Aventine crew were all pretty bland in this book - I guess we're supposed to care about Bowers but really the only character trait he's ever been given is a love for protocol.

The book kind of brought up a wider point for me in that it feels like we've got so many new crews to deal with that the main TV characters are getting spread thinner and thinner to sustain so many different books. There are the new characters on the Enterprise, DS9 & Voyager plus most of the crew on the Titan & Aventine plus the New Frontier lot. I have been enjoying most of the books and most of the time it doesn't bother me but here all we had was a grumpy Bashir and an Ezri who isn't written like her TV character these days.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the new characters and obviously things have to progress but there weren't enough familiar characters working together for this book to really work for me.
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