RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,581
Posts: 5,423,785
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 591
Newest member: Super Scout

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: How would you rate Zero Sum Game?
Outstanding 38 22.22%
Above Average 78 45.61%
Average 45 26.32%
Below Average 8 4.68%
Poor 2 1.17%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 11 2010, 05:21 PM   #211
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I just finally got back to the book after finishing up (the amazing) Immortal Coil, and I have to admit, I was pretty suprised by how much Bashir's attitude has changed since we saw him last, and I'm only Chapter 4.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 05:37 PM   #212
ares93
Commodore
 
Location: ares93
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

JD wrote: View Post
I just finally got back to the book after finishing up (the amazing) Immortal Coil, and I have to admit, I was pretty suprised by how much Bashir's attitude has changed since we saw him last, and I'm only Chapter 4.
you ain't seen nothing yet.
__________________
I find it extremely satisfying watching Jehovah's Witnesses through my window. After all, it takes an RFID lock, a titanium enhanced fireproof door and bullet-resistant glass to keep them out of the building.
ares93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 05:59 PM   #213
Thrawn
Rear Admiral
 
Thrawn's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

RonG wrote: View Post
I completely agree (that usually happens with Thrawn's posts, though, so no surprise there...).
Thanks.

I wonder - what would you have done differently in the novel? what would make it an Epic Mack Book (tm?) ?
Good question.

I think just tell the whole story. Have him fall in love with Sarina, find out she's a part of Section 31, and either join or not. The most interesting choice would've been for him to join, I think. This set up a really interesting conflict without actually doing anything with it, and I see no reason why it stopped there.
Thrawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 06:29 PM   #214
sfroth
Lieutenant Commander
 
sfroth's Avatar
 
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I think it's funny that the overwhelming response via this thread seems to be, as someone said earlier, "meh", while the poll indicates a significant above average to outstanding book.

Personally, I voted average, and side with the "meh" crowd. It was a pretty good Aventine/spy story, and I liked the depth provided on the Breen culture. I thought it an interesting explanation as to why so little is known about the Breen, though I wonder how they've managed to keep it secret so long.

The reason the book wasn't better for me, though, is that the spy storyline focused on two completely new characters, who happen to share names with some previously established characters. Sure, it's been a long time since we saw Sarina, and we really only saw a child awakening from a long sleep, with this being her all grown up. However, I really don't see the transition from the old Sarina to this, and Mack really didn't make it believable to me. And Bashir... oh, Bashir... That was not Bashir. Again, time has passed, and this Bashir is lonely. But are we really to believe that Bashir has been unable to make friends to replace the ones he's lost? Perhaps some time explaining why Bashir hasn't progressed at all since we last saw him would have helped me feel like this lonely Bashir made sense, but we never got that.

David Mack is still my favorite author, but Zero Sum Game is definitely his weakest outing to date.
__________________
-Steve
sfroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 07:09 PM   #215
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
And again...the way he writes Ezri, and makes her so cryptic--we see Julian's reaction to their chew-out scene...but when we cut to Ezri, it's totally external, business-as-usual--we don't have any clue as to how she reacted to the whole thing.
You're really interested in the Ezri Bashir relationship, yes, Rush Limborg?
Whatever gave you that idea?

It seems clear that David Mack and the editors choose to develop the Bashir Sarina relationship because it has the most story-telling potential what with S31 and Bashir's new-found amorality.
1. An amorality which you strongly condemn as being unbelievable and out of character, as I recall.

2. Story-telling potential, or lack thereof, is limited only by the imagination of the writer. Since Mr. Mack is VERY imaginative, to say the least, he could potentially go either way.

I myself have written a GREAT deal of fanfic all stemming from the break-up (it's in the FanFic forum, if you're interested).

As for Bashir Ezri - all this book wanted to establish is that they remain on relatively bad terms after their break-up. You overanalysed their scene together far more than the writer most likely intended.
Are you absolutely certain about that, sir? How do you presume to know what the writer's intent is? ares93 and I ventured our theories because we are know writers (fanfic, of course) as well. We are aware of the process, and the various tequniques.

BTW...Mr. Mack himself seemed to confirm ares93's theory, a few pages back.

Ezri on Aventine and Bashir on DS9 is not a recipe for a romantic relationship rife with story possibilities aka it's unlikely they'll become a couple in the foreseeable future.
Again...how do you presume to know the limits of its "possibilities"?

ares93 wrote: View Post
^ With the risk of revealing El Rushbo's most deeply guarded secrets. Yes.
I think Rush is the only one who's a bigger fan than me.
I'd say so!

Anyway, you have a very good point there. As much as I'd hate to admit it. The Sarina-Bashir-S31 story is a lot more interesting. Then again, I've always been a sucker for a good spy story.
It is...but I see no reason to bring Ezri into the whole thing, eventually....

Overanalyzed? Rushbo? Have you even read my posts? Now, I cant speak for Rushbo. But i have a psychology background (Albeit, criminal psychology). You want overanalyzed, you come to me friend.
Exactly.

I don't have a professional Psychology background. But I am big on Philosophy...and there seem to be a great deal of links between the two sciences, which I have exploited on more than one occasion.
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 07:15 PM   #216
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

sfroth wrote: View Post
The reason the book wasn't better for me, though, is that the spy storyline focused on two completely new characters, who happen to share names with some previously established characters. Sure, it's been a long time since we saw Sarina, and we really only saw a child awakening from a long sleep, with this being her all grown up. However, I really don't see the transition from the old Sarina to this, and Mack really didn't make it believable to me.
Come to think of it...I would say this screams for another novel--i.e., Sarina's journey, from the scientist's family to (it looks like this is no longer a spoiler, but this is better safe than sorry) You Know What.

And Bashir... oh, Bashir... That was not Bashir. Again, time has passed, and this Bashir is lonely. But are we really to believe that Bashir has been unable to make friends to replace the ones he's lost? Perhaps some time explaining why Bashir hasn't progressed at all since we last saw him would have helped me feel like this lonely Bashir made sense, but we never got that.
Somehow, I agree. Something must have happened to make Julian so desperate as to react like he did when Ezri questioned it all.

(BTW...I freely admit, Ezri's lines in the scene were rude, to put it mildly. Something's setting her off, too.

You know...the more I think about it...the more the scene kinda reminds me of Ezri and Worf's scenes in "Penumbra". Not sayng that as a "prediction" as to where they'll go, just saying it could well be an indication of a GREAT deal of romatic tension between the two....)
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 07:40 PM   #217
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg

Rush, you are obviously subjective. Try to look at the situation objectively, in light of 'Zero sum game' - what is rushed, what is painstakingly developed, what is established, etc:

"1. An amorality which you strongly condemn as being unbelievable and out of character, as I recall."
Bashir's new-found amorality IS out of character - but it's beyond doubt that David Mack wanted to develop Bashir in this direction.

"2. Story-telling potential, or lack thereof, is limited only by the imagination of the writer."
And David Mack used its imagination in order to develop the Sarina/Bashir relationship with S31 spicing.
And, frankly, the potential of this set-up is FAR richer than what you advocate. Yes, a good writer can make a story out of any set-up; but some set-ups are more fertile, more rich in possibilities than others.

"How do you presume to know what the writer's intent is?"
A writer's intent is revealed in his work.
The rushed scenes between Bashir Ezri and the fact that they changed nothing between them all but prove that David Mack had no intention of developing the Ezri Bashir relationship.
On the other hand, the amount of atention dedicated to the Sarina Bashir relationship and the ending of the book clearly show the direction Bashir's personal life took in David Mack hands.

"Mr. Mack himself seemed to confirm ares93's theory, a few pages back"
David Mack was being evasive and trying to keep a good mood on this forum.
In such posts/affirmations, you only see what you wish to see, Rush Limborg - apropos psychology and overanalysing.


ares93
"Overanalyzed? Rushbo? Have you even read my posts? Now, I cant speak for Rushbo. But i have a psychology background (Albeit, criminal psychology). You want overanalyzed, you come to me friend. "
I will keep this in mind.

PS - Are you saying psychologists ALWAYS overanalyse everything?
ProtoAvatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 07:41 PM   #218
Thrawn
Rear Admiral
 
Thrawn's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
David Mack used its imagination
For some reason, this particular typo totally made me
Thrawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:07 PM   #219
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg

Rush, you are obviously subjective. Try to look at the situation objectively, in light of 'Zero sum game' - what is rushed, what is painstakingly developed, what is established, etc:

"1. An amorality which you strongly condemn as being unbelievable and out of character, as I recall."
Bashir's new-found amorality IS out of character - but it's beyond doubt that David Mack wanted to develop Bashir in this direction.

"2. Story-telling potential, or lack thereof, is limited only by the imagination of the writer."
And David Mack used its imagination in order to develop the Sarina/Bashir relationship with S31 spicing.
And, frankly, the potential of this set-up is FAR richer than what you advocate. Yes, a good writer can make a story out of any set-up; but some set-ups are more fertile, more rich in possibilities than others.

"How do you presume to know what the writer's intent is?"
A writer's intent is revealed in his work.
The rushed scenes between Bashir Ezri and the fact that they changed nothing between them all but prove that David Mack had no intention of developing the Ezri Bashir relationship.
On the other hand, the amount of atention dedicated to the Sarina Bashir relationship and the ending of the book clearly show the direction Bashir's personal life took in David Mack hands.
ares93
"Overanalyzed? Rushbo? Have you even read my posts? Now, I cant speak for Rushbo. But i have a psychology background (Albeit, criminal psychology). You want overanalyzed, you come to me friend. "
I will keep this in mind.

PS - Are you saying psychologists ALWAYS overanalyse everything?
Sir...would you mind explaining why your interperetation of the book should be considered "objectively" more "clear" than ares93's theory?

Again...ares93 and I have experience in writing, and has just been established, ares93 has a background in psychology. We know what we are talking about.

"Mr. Mack himself seemed to confirm ares93's theory, a few pages back"
David Mack was being evasive and trying to keep a good mood on this forum.
In such posts/affirmations, you only see what you wish to see, Rush Limborg - apropos psychology and overanalysing.
Frankly, ProtoAvatar...I could easily say the exact same thing to you--granted, you have yet to inform us of your own experience, or lack therof, in writing and psychology.

Which is why this bickering is pointless. We should therefore agree to disagree, I believe.
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:09 PM   #220
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Thrawn wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
David Mack used its imagination
For some reason, this particular typo totally made me
I see it. David Mack, an "it"?

Well! I say, I know ProtoAvatar doesn't think much of the book--but this is rediculous!
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:24 PM   #221
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg

"Sir...would you mind explaining why your interperetation of the book should be considered "objectively" more "clear" than ares93's theory?"
I already told you why - due to the book itself.

"Again...ares93 and I have experience in writing, and has just been established, ares93 has a background in psychology. We know what we are talking about."
If you know what you are talking about, then you should have no problem seeing what is accentuated, detailed upon and what is rushed over in 'Zero sum game'.

Let's look at the most basic level - how many pages are dedicated to Ezri Bashir and how many to Sarina Bashir?
Or - which relationship remained where it was, stagnant and which was greately developed?

You keep saying ~" you know what you are talking about" - but you also keep failing - or, better said, refusing - to grasp such obvious facts/character developments/etc.

Instead, you keep coming with interpretations of the meaning beyond the meaning beyond the meaning of a few lines of dialogue that were glossed over (instead of accentuated) by the author (the story did not focused upon them in the least!). Come on!

You are allowing your subjectivity in this matter to blind you from the truth, Rush Limborg.

PS:
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
David Mack used its imagination
For some reason, this particular typo totally made me
I see it. David Mack, an "it"?

Well! I say, I know ProtoAvatar doesn't think much of the book--but this is rediculous!
You should really stop being so bitter over this imaginary characters pairing matter, Rush Limborg. It does no one (including yourself) any good.
ProtoAvatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:33 PM   #222
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^*sigh* ProtoAvatar, we can disagree with each other without stuff like that.

Again...if you are going to accuse me of making subjective assumptions and passing them off as objective...kindly don't do what you accuse me of doing. You say it is "due to the book itself"--well, that is a simple, subjective interperetation, as was mine.

We will not know the truth until it is explained in a future book. I simply took the anomalies I saw--such as Ezri not really getting a POV in the book--and formed a hypothesis with ares93.

Finally...this sorry showing tells me that it is not I who is "bitter over this imaginary characters pairing matter". Kindly refrain from the patronization, and making this debate personal. It hardly does you, or the others in this debate, any good.

(I apologize to everyone for this "clash", folks. It seems to be taking up the thread....)
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:45 PM   #223
Almost Unique
Lieutenant
 
Almost Unique's Avatar
 
Location: Marquette, MI
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I'm just glad we finally found out that David Mack's a genderless robot
__________________
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." -JC
Almost Unique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:45 PM   #224
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
You say it is "due to the book itself"--well, that is a simple, subjective interperetation, as was mine.
I also explained to you WHY it's due to the book itself - in some detail, based on objective facts -, Rush Limborg.
But, as you did with 'Zero sum game', you apparently refuse to see the evident.

'Zero sum game' started an arc with Bashir Sarina S31 that will be developed in future DS9 books (read - over the next years).
After that, if there are any plans, they are subject to change - and will most likely change - due to authors, editors, etc.

I simply took the anomalies I saw--such as Ezri not really getting a POV in the book--and formed a hypothesis with ares93.
You will find a LOT of such "anomalies" in any book. Due to the writers not concentrating on some aspects of their story.

Kindly refrain from the patronization, and making this debate personal. It hardly does you, or the others in this debate, any good.
Then kindly refrain from gratuitous, unprovocked sarcasm and making this debate personal, Rush Limborg.
ProtoAvatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2010, 08:55 PM   #225
ares93
Commodore
 
Location: ares93
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

This is all friendly theorizing. Rushbo and I voiced our opinions, so were you. We both (all three) have the right. We don't have to get personal about it.

As Rushbo suggested, lets just agree on disagreeing an call it a truce. Agreed?
__________________
I find it extremely satisfying watching Jehovah's Witnesses through my window. After all, it takes an RFID lock, a titanium enhanced fireproof door and bullet-resistant glass to keep them out of the building.
ares93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bashir, ezri dax, julian bashir, reviewpoll_v1, trek books, typhon pact

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.