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Old October 9 2010, 05:57 PM   #31
SPCTRE
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
vas2009 wrote: View Post
^^^ Here here!

I cringe to think what crap they would come up with if they tried to appeal to women...
Oh, but think of the marketing oppertunities!

"Hi, I'm Kathryn Janeway, and as a single woman alone in the Delta Quadrant I need my hair looking it's finest..."

Also:

Janeway bun tighteners
Janeway's Nebula Coffee
Janeway Action Vest
Janeway i-Pad: With storage space for only one file so you need a whole stack of them to get anything done


They missed the boat.
They sure did
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Old October 9 2010, 06:47 PM   #32
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

Janeway Underoos! I want Janeway Underoos!

And, come now, we must also have Voyager Feminine Protection. "Forget rock climbing and paragliding; with our Protection you can command a starship!"

On a serious note it's frustrating that the female fans are forgotten. Wasn't one of the intentions of TPTB to create a larger female Trek fanbase by casting a woman as captain? I was in my mid-20s when Voyager first aired and though I was already a Trek fan I was thrilled to see a female captain, as were friends of mine, both male and female. It was through watching Voyager reruns that I hooked my daughter on Trek, and she says it was the strong characters of Janeway and B'Elanna that first drew her interest. I should point out, though, that my daughter's too embarrassed to let even her close friends know she's a Trekkie, which I find very sad.
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Old October 9 2010, 07:21 PM   #33
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

macghoul wrote: View Post
Janeway Underoos! I want Janeway Underoos!

And, come now, we must also have Voyager Feminine Protection. "Forget rock climbing and paragliding; with our Protection you can command a starship!"

On a serious note it's frustrating that the female fans are forgotten. Wasn't one of the intentions of TPTB to create a larger female Trek fanbase by casting a woman as captain? I was in my mid-20s when Voyager first aired and though I was already a Trek fan I was thrilled to see a female captain, as were friends of mine, both male and female. It was through watching Voyager reruns that I hooked my daughter on Trek, and she says it was the strong characters of Janeway and B'Elanna that first drew her interest. I should point out, though, that my daughter's too embarrassed to let even her close friends know she's a Trekkie, which I find very sad.
Ahh that's too bad. I always had tons of friends and was always outgoing/social but I never hid the fact that I'm a total trekkie. I think even if I didn't tell people directly, they figured it out the second they walked into my place (ST action figures, the box sets, the ST art etc etc ) There's really nothing to be ashamed of Sure, your friends may lovingly tease you and say you're a nerd but you gotta just take that as a compliment
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Old October 9 2010, 08:57 PM   #34
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

Brit wrote: View Post
But I think with the movie “Avatar” appealing to so many people, it is evidence that “the average bimbo” does get Science fiction when she figures out that people have been lying to her all along and that it isn’t too hard for her brain.
Avatar's plot and characters were so basic that a five-year-old could easily grasp it.
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Old October 9 2010, 11:07 PM   #35
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

PsychoPere wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
But I think with the movie “Avatar” appealing to so many people, it is evidence that “the average bimbo” does get Science fiction when she figures out that people have been lying to her all along and that it isn’t too hard for her brain.
Avatar's plot and characters were so basic that a five-year-old could easily grasp it.
So, doesn't matter. It still reached a lot of people and it will attract a lot of people to science fiction that wasn't attracted before. This is a good thing.

Personally I loved that the plot was simple, if it hadn't been then a lot of people would have been lost within the spectacle of the visuals. James Cameron was smart enough to realize he needed a simple plot.

I hope a lot of five year olds loved it and will start reading speculative fiction because of it.

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Old October 10 2010, 12:43 AM   #36
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

Brit wrote: View Post
firecrackerrrr wrote: View Post
I actually worked in PR for a major film production company in LA (still do on occasion but I'm a full time student again) and trust me, as much as I feel ya there, they do have a point. The unfortunate truth is that the majority of the viewers are/were male. For every lady that showed up at the comic con promos and events for ST there'd be 10 more guys. It sucks and I'm exactly like you. I spend insane amounts of time and money on Star Trek and BSG and scifi in general. But when they mention things like that in the press, they unfortunately only touch on the one majority in the statistic.
And this is the mindset I am talking about, ask yourself is the demographic male because only males like science fiction or is the demographic male because the producers of film and the publishers of books are not producing material that would attract female viewers.

It's easy to say that the male demographic is the majority because it has been for years but in truth just as many women would watch science fiction movies or read just as many books as males if the movies and books appealed to them. It's for sure that if you are only catering to a certain segment of the population that is the only one you will reach.

I personally think James Cameron's "Avatar" proved this point because it did appeal to a very broad demographic and not just the perceived audience for Science Fiction films. There is a growing group of female writers that are also proving that women read and enjoy Science Fiction novels too, but they had to go around the traditional publishing houses to be able to reach a female audience.

Brit
My problem with "believing" this demographic report is because its not true in my world. Many of my female friends are scifi fans, and I really don't see why it matters that 9 men show up at a con for every one woman who does... But if it DOES matter, then I should point out that in the last 10 years I've flown across the continent "alone" to attend a Trek grandslam in Burbank, flew to Cleveland with 3 female friends to see "The Women of Star trek Voy" con, and laST YEAR drove to Jersey with 3 other female frIends to see another Trek con. At every venue, I saw MANY females, and could only wonder, as Brit asked, how many more there could be if scifi courted as as avidly as they appear to court the make demographic.


firecrackerrrr wrote:
But I always wondered if they did make it more appealing to the average female, would I still be interested in it?

AMG wrote:

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. I feel a little alarmed just trying to picture what sort of shows or movies might be produced under such a scheme. I'd think rather just put up with being in the overlooked demographic.
Exactly. I'm all for female empowerment but if an average bimbo can't get into the shows I like, frankly...maybe it's for the better. It sounds so mean but I LIKE to be challenged and watch something that requires me to use a couple of brain cells. Nothing worse than when they dumb things down. Now if they could keep things exactly the way they are, and acknowledge us - the awesome minority - that'd be ideal.


Are we suggesting that the average geico neanderthal male watching TV can appreciate Scifi but the average female="bimbo" cannot?

Nothing personal, people, but that's not just hitting below the belt, its simply wrong.

Asking for scifi to extend itself to a female audience doesn't mean we have to devolve the genre, it means we have to elevate it to attract a wider audience. Asking women to watch means many things, not the least is TPTB have to give us stories that doesn't just objectify the female form/character. A story that doesn't belittle her contribution or her power. It means giving consistent honor to both the male and female protagonists and not just pat the little woman on the head and sending her away for another cup of coffee. Scifi has a lot to answer for, over the years, and many women are afraid to get into it for the simple reason that it feels like a male only club, and women need only apply if they want to "serve".

Little do these nonfans know that there have been strong women scattered through out the genre... and that's the problem. They are scattered.

Look at the last 2 Star Trek series.

"Voyager" was ripe with strong women, and beautiful though they may have been, cat suited though they may have been, none of them were paraded through the series doing half nude vulcan acupressure massage like poor T'Pol's character was seen doing frequently in "Enterprise". None of Voyager's women were the screaming female that Hoshi seemed to become (I say this, despite the fact that in the first ep Hoshi was my fav character and T'Pol my least. That changed quickly as further eps ran.)

"BSG", reimagined, and "Firefly" are two scifi shows that should have been heavily advertised to the female audience, simply because both of them lacked the one thing that my female friends who are antiscif complain about. "The aliens". The people with the rubber heads and wayyyy too much makeup. That takes some nonscifi fans out of the moment, and who can blame them? How many times do you see someone looking like Quark, walk into your neighborhood bar?

I think, truth to tell, that Hollywood PTB are lazy. They would rather spit out "Weekend at Bernies II" than come up with an original idea. They would rather try to clone "Lost" than come up with an idea as daring as "Lost".

I suggest that they turn their focus groups to those of us who have left, and ask us what will bring us back to TV, rather than try to regurgitate the same show nine different ways. Law & Order:, L&O:SVU", "L&O: Criminal intent", L& O:London, CSI, CSI Miami, CSI:NY, NCIS, NCIS:LA.
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Old October 10 2010, 01:09 AM   #37
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Are we suggesting that the average geico neanderthal male watching TV can appreciate Scifi but the average female="bimbo" cannot?
NO. However, the Geico Caveman type assumes that he CAN understand scifi and that he will find it interesting. The average Bimbo type assumes the opposite - which then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Therefore, TPTB sell to Caveman and not Bimbo.

(I am aware this is a generalization. That's why I said "Geico Caveman type" and "Bimbo type" rather than just "men" and "women".)

PS: Got Geico Cavemen on the brain, J'Rulz? Me, too.
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Old October 10 2010, 01:39 AM   #38
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post

My problem with "believing" this demographic report is because its not true in my world. Many of my female friends are scifi fans, and I really don't see why it matters that 9 men show up at a con for every one woman who does... But if it DOES matter, then I should point out that in the last 10 years I've flown across the continent "alone" to attend a Trek grandslam in Burbank, flew to Cleveland with 3 female friends to see "The Women of Star trek Voy" con, and laST YEAR drove to Jersey with 3 other female frIends to see another Trek con. At every venue, I saw MANY females, and could only wonder, as Brit asked, how many more there could be if scifi courted as as avidly as they appear to court the make demographic.
Clearly that's directed at me so I'll attempt to answer, despite your obvious cold attitude towards anything I say. No worries, it's coo! I obviously meant, it matters to the big wigs in the film industry. Me? I don't give a shit how many men vs women show up at a con. I attend them myself and that's all that matters to me as an individual. But you were wondering why they care so much about that majority and I simplified the long answer for you. They look at that data - data such as attendance at cons among other things - and they come to conclusions. Ineffective? Perhaps. Inconclusive? Probably. Incorrect portrayal of the actual facts? Most likely. But it is what it is.

So you have the choice. You can either continue to moan about it. Or you can take things into your own hands; continue to support the things you love, appreciate and actually get (because whether you like it or not, the average bimbo/caveman doesn't) and write to those who matter. Though honestly, most of the big wigs that do get that type of hatemail either don't read it (it often gets filtered by an assistant) or they laugh at it and send it to their trashcan/recycle bin. Again, sorry if my remarks offended you. I'm very blunt and I'm aware that can be annoying, but was what I said really that far from the truth? I'm just as annoyed as you are. We're on the same page. And this is a discussion board.
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Old October 10 2010, 02:25 AM   #39
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

firecrackerrrr wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post

My problem with "believing" this demographic report is because its not true in my world. Many of my female friends are scifi fans, and I really don't see why it matters that 9 men show up at a con for every one woman who does... But if it DOES matter, then I should point out that in the last 10 years I've flown across the continent "alone" to attend a Trek grandslam in Burbank, flew to Cleveland with 3 female friends to see "The Women of Star trek Voy" con, and laST YEAR drove to Jersey with 3 other female frIends to see another Trek con. At every venue, I saw MANY females, and could only wonder, as Brit asked, how many more there could be if scifi courted as as avidly as they appear to court the make demographic.
Clearly that's directed at me so I'll attempt to answer, despite your obvious cold attitude towards anything I say. No worries, it's coo! I obviously meant, it matters to the big wigs in the film industry. Me? I don't give a shit how many men vs women show up at a con. I attend them myself and that's all that matters to me as an individual. But you were wondering why they care so much about that majority and I simplified the long answer for you. They look at that data - data such as attendance at cons among other things - and they come to conclusions. Ineffective? Perhaps. Inconclusive? Probably. Incorrect portrayal of the actual facts? Most likely. But it is what it is.

So you have the choice. You can either continue to moan about it. Or you can take things into your own hands; continue to support the things you love, appreciate and actually get (because whether you like it or not, the average bimbo/caveman doesn't) and write to those who matter. Though honestly, most of the big wigs that do get that type of hatemail either don't read it (it often gets filtered by an assistant) or they laugh at it and send it to their trashcan/recycle bin. Again, sorry if my remarks offended you. I'm very blunt and I'm aware that can be annoying, but was what I said really that far from the truth? I'm just as annoyed as you are. We're on the same page. And this is a discussion board.


Yes, this is a discussion board, and I thought I was "discussing" a point brought up about the "audience for scifi."

As for "doing something" about my position, watching all 7 seasons first run, prosyletizing successfully to fellow scifi fans in the 90's, buying 2 seasons piecemeal on VHS and all 7 seasons on dvd, going to three cons, 1 of which was exclusively devoted to Voyager was my way of demonstrating that I do practice what I preach. But if the average goon in the corporate suite doesn't read the mail he's sent, then the only thing I haven't done isn't going to help anyway, according to your own experience.

As for directing my cold attitude towards you, I think I've been directing my cold attitude to the idiots who run the major tv studios, who have lost market share to first cable and then to the internet and who still haven't figured out how to bring in new audiences. They just fight amonst themselves over the ever dwindling old audiences and bemoan their place in the universe.
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Old October 10 2010, 02:35 AM   #40
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
firecrackerrrr wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post

My problem with "believing" this demographic report is because its not true in my world. Many of my female friends are scifi fans, and I really don't see why it matters that 9 men show up at a con for every one woman who does... But if it DOES matter, then I should point out that in the last 10 years I've flown across the continent "alone" to attend a Trek grandslam in Burbank, flew to Cleveland with 3 female friends to see "The Women of Star trek Voy" con, and laST YEAR drove to Jersey with 3 other female frIends to see another Trek con. At every venue, I saw MANY females, and could only wonder, as Brit asked, how many more there could be if scifi courted as as avidly as they appear to court the make demographic.
Clearly that's directed at me so I'll attempt to answer, despite your obvious cold attitude towards anything I say. No worries, it's coo! I obviously meant, it matters to the big wigs in the film industry. Me? I don't give a shit how many men vs women show up at a con. I attend them myself and that's all that matters to me as an individual. But you were wondering why they care so much about that majority and I simplified the long answer for you. They look at that data - data such as attendance at cons among other things - and they come to conclusions. Ineffective? Perhaps. Inconclusive? Probably. Incorrect portrayal of the actual facts? Most likely. But it is what it is.

So you have the choice. You can either continue to moan about it. Or you can take things into your own hands; continue to support the things you love, appreciate and actually get (because whether you like it or not, the average bimbo/caveman doesn't) and write to those who matter. Though honestly, most of the big wigs that do get that type of hatemail either don't read it (it often gets filtered by an assistant) or they laugh at it and send it to their trashcan/recycle bin. Again, sorry if my remarks offended you. I'm very blunt and I'm aware that can be annoying, but was what I said really that far from the truth? I'm just as annoyed as you are. We're on the same page. And this is a discussion board.


Yes, this is a discussion board, and I thought I was "discussing" a point brought up about the "audience for scifi."

As for "doing something" about my position, watching all 7 seasons first run, prosyletizing successfully to fellow scifi fans in the 90's, buying 2 seasons piecemeal on VHS and all 7 seasons on dvd, going to three cons, 1 of which was exclusively devoted to Voyager was my way of demonstrating that I do practice what I preach. But if the average goon in the corporate suite doesn't read the mail he's sent, then the only thing I haven't done isn't going to help anyway, according to your own experience.

As for directing my cold attitude towards you, I think I've been directing my cold attitude to the idiots who run the major tv studios, who have lost market share to first cable and then to the internet and who still haven't figured out how to bring in new audiences. They just fight amonst themselves over the ever dwindling old audiences and bemoan their place in the universe.
Then we're in agreement. I frankly just relayed the information to you - the stuff I knew from experience. But one of the many reasons why I chose to go back to school (and back to science) is because I was so fed up with that industry. The junior crews are fantastic and I have many friends there. The senior execs are pigs and frankly disgust me. As much as I hate the situation and as much I hate admitting this, the truth is that I've come to accept the reality of it because the situation seemed hopeless. I've actually never been in an environment that was so obviously sexist as much as the film industry is. i would've loved to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting room when they proposed a female Captain for Voyager - if only to see how Paramount was convinced of how that could benefit them. On the other hand, maybe that'd be a bad idea as I would no doubt lose my sh*t.
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Old October 11 2010, 04:59 PM   #41
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

Hooray! An honest account of the film industry is much appreciated. Clearly, these executives live on the simplest of levels--and on the most primitive of ethics. If we are writing for men, especially young men, we have to assume they are totally into sex, so all women have to be young, thin, beautiful, etc. Add some good f/x, and they will flock to the movie, series, books, etc.

What's happening is that their sexy, f/x-filled shows are falling flat. What everyone one wants, first and foremost, is a good story--whether the actors are male/female, young/old, etc. No wonder viewers have flocked to reality TV shows like Top Chef or The Next Food Network Star or American Idol. The story of the competition beats most plots written for the industry today IMHO.
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Old October 12 2010, 07:48 PM   #42
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

I think we need a boarder view point here.
I think by only taking the view point of one blog about one show doen't take all of sci-fi into consideration.
Star Wars, nuBSG, LOST, Alien and several modern sci-fi shows & movies do keep their female demographic in mind.

After the openning line of "All men hate Voyager", should have made you dismiss this POV from the get go.
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Old October 12 2010, 08:13 PM   #43
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

AuntKate wrote: View Post
Hooray! An honest account of the film industry is much appreciated. Clearly, these executives live on the simplest of levels--and on the most primitive of ethics. If we are writing for men, especially young men, we have to assume they are totally into sex, so all women have to be young, thin, beautiful, etc. Add some good f/x, and they will flock to the movie, series, books, etc.

What's happening is that their sexy, f/x-filled shows are falling flat. What everyone one wants, first and foremost, is a good story--whether the actors are male/female, young/old, etc. No wonder viewers have flocked to reality TV shows like Top Chef or The Next Food Network Star or American Idol. The story of the competition beats most plots written for the industry today IMHO.
..but outside of sci-fi, they put Camron Manhiem & Sara Rue in programs and nobody talked about what good actresses they are, most of the publicity about them dealt with their weight. So IMO even when such things are geared toward a more mature audience, the talk still turns back to shallow issues. We even have a post on this site for hot actresses/actors. Not one of them is old and or heavy set, every last one of them is young, thin & barely dressed.. So the public is kinda telling the studios that they do wanna see young thin women.

American Idol, Top Chef and the like are still full of attractive people.
Fabio got voted "fan Favorite" because he was seen as sexy.
Padma Lashmi is the co-host.
Tom Coliccio is a sex symbol within the gay community and he's straight.
Paula Abdul is more known as a sexy symbol than a singer.
Guy Fieri winner of the first season of Food Network Star is now a sex symbol.
Doesn't anybody remember Simon implying to Frenchie during season 2 or 3 that while she's a great singer, she doesn't fit the title of American Idol due to her size? Even Jennifer Hudson is now doing weight loss commercials to fit in with the image of what the public finds sexy.
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Old October 13 2010, 06:53 PM   #44
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

I realize that the demographics pulled in by a series drives the sale of advertising, but when will these "eegits" figure out that the best way to get and keep an audience and to get and keep advertising is to write solid entertaining stories?
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Old October 13 2010, 07:24 PM   #45
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Re: Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

AuntKate wrote: View Post
I realize that the demographics pulled in by a series drives the sale of advertising, but when will these "eegits" figure out that the best way to get and keep an audience and to get and keep advertising is to write solid entertaining stories?
Entertainment is in the eye of the beholder as reality TV and stuff like "Jackass" is a testiment too.

However, it might start happening sooner than you think considering many places around the country are requiring you to have cable in order to veiw basic TV. Add to that the cable companies now demanding that basic TV pay them to keep their channels on the air, they're going to have to figure out some way to bring in that extra revenue. I'm guessing that would require more networks to do more quality TV to draw an audience and have more big named sponcers back their shows. Still it's not going to stop them from using the tried and true formula of sex appeal to also keep that audience.

....but we shall see.
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