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Old October 7 2010, 03:47 PM   #61
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

The guys who did the "Trekkies" documentary got a lot of flack for supposedly editing it to emphasize some of the more extreme fan behavior, but the fact is that those folks were willing and eager to be filmed doing what they do. That stuff ain't made up.

I was reminded of a genre magazine writer who interviewed me in the early 1990s - he was a pretty nice guy, and he started off by saying "Lots of people tell me that they don't like what I write, but none of them tell me that I misquoted them."

He turned out to be soooo right.
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Old October 7 2010, 03:54 PM   #62
JarodRussell
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Like people, there are all kinds of Star Trek fans out there. Their fandom ranges from "obsessive," to "moderate," to "very casual," IMO. It's the obsessive ones that tend to get the most attention though...
Well, the only moments Trekkers get in contact with real life are conventions and movie premieres. And the thousands of fanboy letters Paramount and CBS get.

And in all those cases, the obsessive Trekkers are the majority.



While sports events are big social events who are attended by virtually everyone, and the obsessive fans (those who attend EVERY game and then the hooligans) are in the minority.
One can also go away from sports and just look at music. Live concerts. Nobody thinks they are nerd events. And "everybody" loves to make music, just like "everybody" loves to do sports, and everybody knows what it is. Not everybody likes Science Fiction, and much less like specifically Star Trek, and the majority of people doesn't even know what Star Trek is. But every time they get in contact with a Trek fan, he's dressed as a Klingon, or is wearing these silly colorful pyjamas and makes that weirdo V thing with his hand.
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Old October 7 2010, 04:02 PM   #63
C.E. Evans
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Like people, there are all kinds of Star Trek fans out there. Their fandom ranges from "obsessive," to "moderate," to "very casual," IMO. It's the obsessive ones that tend to get the most attention though...
Well, the only moments Trekkers get in contact with real life are conventions and movie premieres. And the thousands of fanboy letters Paramount and CBS get.

And in all those cases, the obsessive Trekkers are the majority.
But do they represent the majority of Star Trek fans overall, though? The real majority of Trekkers may be very casual ones that simply watch the occasional TV episode or movie and that's it. They don't go to conventions, they don't write letters to the studios, and may not even visit Star Trek websites...
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Old October 7 2010, 04:09 PM   #64
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
A fictional franchise is only mildly comparable to a sports team, unless you're talking about something like the WWE.
Oh, I find it completely comparable. We're both nothing more than fans of a form of entertainment.
Not at all. Most sports are contests of skill in which the outcome is not predetermined. This kind of spectacle attracts people for different reasons than watching scripted stage or film performances does, and the kinds of emotional investment that fans make are also different in most cases.

This is one reason that despite the fact that there are thousands of examples of better films and novels than anything produced for Star Trek there are not examples of devoted, organized fan groups for each of them. Trek fandom is an idiosyncracy of the Franchise - not unique, but far from a typical or necessary expression of audience enthusiasm for art.

Equating fiction with athletics is just defensive foolishness; they're distinct kinds of human endeavor. Our eagerness to ignore that or to equate such things may be one reason others perceive us as "socially inept."
I'm gonna have to continue to disagree, Sports, to me, is just another form of entertainment. Trek and football are both something you sit down to watch and be entertained by. That one is scripted doesn't matter - the first time you watched a Trek episode, you didn't know how it was going to end any more than a football fan knows how the game will end. And there are sports fans who tape games to rewatch years later, even thought they DO know how it ends.

A fan is a fan is a fan.
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Old October 7 2010, 04:23 PM   #65
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Ziz wrote: View Post
And that's the whole problem - why is it acceptable for a sports fan to make a fool of himself and embarrassing for a Trek fan to make a fool of himself?
Sports games are carried out in public, for one thing. Fans are in public view. So naturally it's more acceptable for them to *act* that way.

If your typical Trek episode was broadcast every night to a packed stadium or ballpark, then the sports fan analogy might be more apt.
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Old October 7 2010, 05:19 PM   #66
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Forbin wrote: View Post
That one is scripted doesn't matter - the first time you watched a Trek episode, you didn't know how it was going to end any more than a football fan knows how the game will end.
It matters enormously to many sports fans. Whether I "know how it's going to end" or not, I understand that everything which happens in a movie has been predetermined to satisfy the artistic and creative goals of the people making it. It is not in any meaningful sense a contest or competition. It is not, by nature, an event whose outcome will be determined by the skills and talents of the participants. Whether I like it or not will involve how good the participants are, but the hero in a bad movie is just as likely to "win" as the hero in a good movie because the outcome is arbitrary.

Sports, of course, are not only something that people watch but activities that people participate in to varying degrees. And again - if I choose to play a softball game, I'm participating in a sport. If I choose to dress up and pretend I'm in Starfleet, I am not exploring space.

Saying "Trek is the same as sports" is yet another reason that non-Trekkies treat us as if we "think it's real."

You look at that moment in the Onion video about "Trekkies Bash New Star Trek Film" where the doofus stammers "if I wanted to see young people doing active things I'd watch sports" with such disdain - the folks who made that know why the audience will laugh, and of course they're right.

Last edited by Admiral Buzzkill; October 7 2010 at 05:38 PM.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:02 PM   #67
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

^ There are some extreme cases that bring and deserve nothing but laughter... that being one of them.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:17 PM   #68
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Nardpuncher wrote: View Post
Yeah...but then after saying all that we can just say that we're both fans of something again.
I think that's what Forbin was getting at. The fan thing. I don't think he thinks Star Trek is like a sports team.
It makes a lot of difference in how the fan following for such things is perceived and functions, though.

There's a big difference between a basketball fan playing a pick-up game while wearing a team jersey and a Trek fan playing Star Trek while made up as a Klingon.
But most sports fans I know aren't playing pick-up games -- they're wearing team jerseys to bars or work or shopping or, obviously, to watch others play.

I agree w/ those who say the "fan" mindset is pretty much the same no matter what you're a fan of.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:20 PM   #69
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

I found the one and only Trek convention (Vegas 2010) I've been to a pretty good mix, with far fewer of the "stereotypical" fans than I thought I'd see. Sure, there were some chess club refugees, but there were more than a few guys who looked like they'd be more likely to be knocking back beers at a sports bar than attending a panel on the Xindi Council. And people with families, etc.

And most of the people in know IRL who like Trek skew to the academic side, but are well-accomplished personally and professionally.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:26 PM   #70
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Most people who enjoy fiction simply enjoy it and then go on with their lives - they don't build substantial parts of their lives around the minutiae of that fiction.

There just aren't that many entertaining parallels to that guy who rebuilt his flat into a Star Trek domicile and then discovered that he can't find a buyer for it.

When someone does go similarly overboard based on any other piece of fiction - say, that couple quite a while ago who spent every dime they could get, some forty thousand dollars, on lottery tickets while watching the movie "Rocky" over and over - they're treated by the media with the exact same mix of humor and pity that more extreme Trekkies are. The difference is that there aren't a lot of other ongoing subcultures besides "Trekdom" that support and nurture this kind of thing as a community activity.

spookytage wrote: View Post
...but there were more than a few guys who looked like they'd be more likely to be knocking back beers at a sports bar than attending a panel on the Xindi Council. And people with families, etc.
Half the people I see in the bar at these things are dressed as Star Wars stormtroopers or in other costumes. "Stormtrooper" seems to be the biggie for the bar scene, though.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:37 PM   #71
Gecko of Gorn
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

We're all freaks, from the hardcores through to the hipsters.

Either way, whether you're staking claims to "canon" or whether your making "cool assertions" as to what Trek is all about (whatever the fuck that is, anyway), no one has got it right. No one here created it/made any real impact on it, to make any unbiased judgements or critiques.

No matter what, no one's opinion really matters.

If you dig it. Cool.

I dig TOS. Old School- represent.

Also, I really dig the JJ.

But that's me.

...And if anyone thinks contra to my preferences and opinions, well, they're just deluded freakazoids.

Welcome to the internet, baby.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:46 PM   #72
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Kreacher wrote: View Post

But most sports fans I know aren't playing pick-up games -- they're wearing team jerseys to bars or work or shopping or, obviously, to watch others play.

I agree w/ those who say the "fan" mindset is pretty much the same no matter what you're a fan of.
That about sums it up.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:47 PM   #73
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
That one is scripted doesn't matter - the first time you watched a Trek episode, you didn't know how it was going to end any more than a football fan knows how the game will end.
It matters enormously to many sports fans. Whether I "know how it's going to end" or not, I understand that everything which happens in a movie has been predetermined to satisfy the artistic and creative goals of the people making it. It is not in any meaningful sense a contest or competition.
And every sport competition can only end in one of 3 ways. It may be predetermined or not - in either case, the fan has no more means to influence the outcome than he has in the case of a movie; the fan does NOT participate in any way in the contest/competition.

Furthermore, a sport competition (a football game, for example) allows for only a limited diversity in its development (players passing a ball around in combinations).
Other entertainment possibilities (such as books and movies) allow for a much more diverse range.

Sports, of course, are not only something that people watch but activities that people participate in to varying degrees. And again - if I choose to play a softball game, I'm participating in a sport. If I choose to dress up and pretend I'm in Starfleet, I am not exploring space.
Being a fan of a football team (for example) and actually playing football are two VERY different things.
Indeed, few football fans regularly play football - even at an amateur level.

Playing football in the back yard is NOT equivalent to pretending 'to be in starfleet'. It's equivalent to writing an original science fiction story (inevitably, of lesser quality than professional works).

Wearing a Manchester United uniform all day and fantasising you are Ronaldo is equivalent to dressing up and pretending 'to be in starfleet'.
And there are more than a few sport fans with this kind of behaviour.
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Old October 7 2010, 06:58 PM   #74
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

Wearing a sports jersey or jacket is in no way the same as dressing up in a Starfleet uniform. With sports, it's more like "Hey, I need a jacket anyway, might as well get one to support my team". Everybody needs jackets and shirts. So when you get one, you might as well get one that looks good. Nobody *needs* to go around in silly costumes.
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Old October 7 2010, 07:05 PM   #75
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Re: Why do non-fans think we think it's real?

But to some of us, team jerseys are costumes. I, for one, would not be caught dead in a jersey or a trek costume, outside of Halloween of course. I would rather look stylish and call attention to me than advertise for a sports team or a sci-fi franchise. Other than my Guinness hat (which is just saying what I mostly made up of) I don't wear anything that turns me into a billboard.

All of this is just a matter of perspective really. We all see things a bit differently, depending on what angle you are viewing the subject. Some see freaks and weirdos where others see common place and everyday.
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