RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,224
Posts: 5,438,093
Members: 24,957
Currently online: 564
Newest member: zanejc

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > TV & Media

TV & Media Non-Trek television, movies, books, music, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 2 2011, 01:32 AM   #211
Jax
Admiral
 
Jax's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

first of all its Hollywood is the generic term for movies not TV...

second of all you want Generic foreign bad guys watch 24.

third - its a TV show and using a plot about crazy ex members of the U.S armed forces who are trying to blow up a city DOES not insult your own armed forces because its just a plot device in a drama comedy show at 10pm.

Nothing more nothing less.
__________________
If Fidelity to freedom and democracy is the code of our civic religion then surely the code of our humanity is faithful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than we ourselves received
Jax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 01:53 AM   #212
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Jax wrote: View Post
first of all its Hollywood is the generic term for movies not TV...
Err, no, the American television industry is based in Hollywood. Sure, a lot of the actual filming is done in Vancouver, but the production companies that make the shows are in Hollywood.


third - its a TV show and using a plot about crazy ex members of the U.S armed forces who are trying to blow up a city DOES not insult your own armed forces because its just a plot device in a drama comedy show at 10pm.
Now, this is quite right. Portraying a few renegade members of the military is not an insult to the military, any more than portraying, say, a dentist or a magazine editor as a murderer in a Castle episode is an insult to the professions of dentistry or editing. It's the individuals that are to blame, not their organizations.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 03:08 AM   #213
IndyJones
Vice Admiral
 
IndyJones's Avatar
 
Location: Chicago
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Forbin wrote: View Post
IndyJones wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
But Hollywood would rather insult our own armed forces than be non-PC about an ethnic group.




Really?

Apprently, yes.

Note how Christopher gave a well-reasoned, polite response, and you only gave me rolly-eyes.
Christopher could spit out a wall of text no matter what the topic was. And my response contained precisely as much thought as your post deserved.
__________________
Travel's fatal to prejudice, bigotry, narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things can't be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's life.
IndyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 04:51 AM   #214
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Christopher wrote: View Post
Now, this is quite right. Portraying a few renegade members of the military is not an insult to the military, any more than portraying, say, a dentist or a magazine editor as a murderer in a Castle episode is an insult to the professions of dentistry or editing. It's the individuals that are to blame, not their organizations.
Well, based on that, then portraying an Islamic terrorist shouldn't be a problem.

Re your earlier thoughts that it'd be okay if a balanced view is shown, i.e. also showing good members of whatever ethnic/religious/national group is cast as a bad guy - is it really a good idea to place such a restriction or rule on entertainment? It smacks of - well, I guess censorship isn't the right word. Some of the best entertainment is entertainment that follows no rules, that dares to show its ass at convention and propriety and rules. I'd hate to see an author constrained by, say, an editor or studio demanding certain plot points be included or eliminated just so some hypothetical people aren't offended. There's been way too much of that, IMHO, these days. It's a definition of PC - now, as a friend of mine (who happened to be an very liberal wromagazine writer) once said, there's good PC that makes sense, and there's "enough already!" PC. That seems to be the latter, to me anyway.

It's one thing if you choose to write a story including a carefully balanced group of characters that softens offensive ones. But do you want to HAVE to?
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 04:53 AM   #215
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

IndyJones wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
IndyJones wrote: View Post





Really?

Apprently, yes.

Note how Christopher gave a well-reasoned, polite response, and you only gave me rolly-eyes.
Christopher could spit out a wall of text no matter what the topic was. And my response contained precisely as much thought as your post deserved.
Uh huh.
Why the vitriol?
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 05:47 AM   #216
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Forbin wrote: View Post
Well, based on that, then portraying an Islamic terrorist shouldn't be a problem.
Okay, I have to point this out -- they're not "Islamic terrorists." They're Islamists -- members of a political movement that uses a radicalized interpretation of religion as a rationale. Terrorism cannot validly be described as "Islamic," because committing terrorist acts is a violation of Islamic law against the killing of women, children, and non-combatants. These are not people practicing a religion, these are people pursuing the political goal of creating a theocratic state, and interpreting Islamic law very selectively (and often quite dishonestly) as it suits their political agenda.

And again, it's a matter of context. The problem is not that there's an occasional depiction of Arabs, Muslims, or other Middle Easterners as terrorists. The problem is that it's a pervasive media stereotype -- and, worse, one that leads to a lot of real-life discrimination. Storytellers have a responsibility to enlighten and inspire, not to promote intolerance.

Re your earlier thoughts that it'd be okay if a balanced view is shown, i.e. also showing good members of whatever ethnic/religious/national group is cast as a bad guy - is it really a good idea to place such a restriction or rule on entertainment?
...
It's one thing if you choose to write a story including a carefully balanced group of characters that softens offensive ones. But do you want to HAVE to?
I call straw man. There is no such restriction or requirement, however much it may seem that way to you. Like I said, it's a matter of responsibility. There's more at stake here than stories. Real people, good people, loyal Americans who practice Islam or are of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent, are being persecuted by ignorant or racist people. Any responsible American given the opportunity should speak out against that injustice, should do what one can to enlighten the ignorant and give succor to their victims -- not as a matter of some imaginary fiat, but as a responsible personal choice. Not because it's "politically correct," but because it's morally right. And the tellers of stories have a powerful forum for fighting ignorance, intolerance, and injustice. It's only right to use that forum to fight lazy stereotypes rather than perpetuating them. I applaud the writers of this story for doing that, because, contrary to what you're claiming, it's something that isn't done nearly often enough in my experience.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 07:08 AM   #217
kitkat
Admiral
 
kitkat's Avatar
 
Location: The South
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Jax wrote: View Post
Neroon wrote: View Post
Nathan reading a passage from "Naked Heat". Watch it for Stana's reactions if for nothing else.
I LOVE IT !
I just watched it again for like the 10th time! Still frakkin hilarious!!
__________________
I don't have ADD. Oh look, a chicken.

Past, present and future walked into a bar...it was tense.
kitkat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 02:17 PM   #218
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Christopher wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Well, based on that, then portraying an Islamic terrorist shouldn't be a problem.
Okay, I have to point this out -- they're not "Islamic terrorists." They're Islamists -- members of a political movement that uses a radicalized interpretation of religion as a rationale.
I speak of terrorists who are Islamic. I used "Islamic" as an adjective for the noun "terrorist." I wasn't saying all Islamics are terrorists, just that my subject in this case was terrorists who are Islamic. And if I used it wrong, then, okay, fair (if nitpicky) point.

As for the rest, it's a perfectly valid view, and I appreciate the reasoned response. I'm not saying writers of good conscience should avoid balanced characters, I'm just saying I'd hate for my entertainment to become dulled and homogenized, or devoid of opinions and personality, because everyonefeels, due to some kind of social stigma or peer pressure, that they have to do it.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 03:03 PM   #219
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

And I reject the premise that there is any such compulsion. And I think it's an ugly thing when something that should be an individual moral imperative is dismissed as "political correctness" or bowing to peer pressure. It's a straw-man attempt to discredit a sincere commitment to equality and justice by painting it as something self-serving and hypocritical. It's an attempt to discredit the idea by attacking the integrity of the person expressing it, and that is ad hominem and inappropriate. You have no basis to make such assumptions about the motivations of the people who choose to tell these stories.

Is it really so hard to believe that people can speak out for equality and fairness out of personal moral convictions rather than external pressure to conform? Is it really so hard to believe that the majority of educated people (as professional writers presumably are) genuinely agree as a matter of individual conscience that racial and religious prejudices should be actively combatted, and that the preponderance of stories debunking stereotypes is merely the sum total of those individual convictions?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 03:51 PM   #220
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Not at all. But if a writer should fail to do so, say, by writing a story with an evil character of some particular ethnic/religious/whatever group without including a balancing good character of the same group, that doesn't automatically make that writer a bigot, and that writer shouldn't have to apologize. I can't bring any to mind at the moment, of course, but I've seen the occasional outrage in the press calling something racist just because the bad guy is of some particular group. I find that nonsensical.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 04:44 PM   #221
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

^Which just goes to show that one should avoid making assumptions about the motivations of a storyteller, n'est-ce pas?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 04:50 PM   #222
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Mais oui! I wish everyone would follow that advice. We could avoid Last-Temptation-like bruhahas that take up so much valuable breathing time.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 05:50 PM   #223
I Am Groot
I Am Groot
 
I Am Groot's Avatar
 
Location: I Am Groot
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

I thought making the terrorists ex-US special forces soldiers instead of Islamists actually allowed them to explore a greater range of issues and ultimately make it a far more compelling and nuanced episode than if they had gone the stereotypical and easy route.

Think about the wide variety of ideas they touched on in this episode:

- Jumping to conclusions about Muslim persons of interest in an investigation being terrorists is wrong, but so is choosing to ignore patterns or evidence pointing in that direction in the service of excessive notions of fairness or "political correctness," as much as I loathe the abuse of the term. If they had wound up with the Syrian family being terrorists, it would have undermined the former part of the message, while the latter part was still addressed even with them being innocent.

- Seeking to understand or even empathize with a terrorist group or other enemy does not equal approval of their actions. If they had been Islamists, I think a lot of people probably would have dismissed their cause out of hand as unrelatable. Instead, they chose to have the motivation be the loss of the unity we as a nation felt after 9/11 and the fact that people have largely put the war in Afghanistan (and to a lesser extent the fact that there are still troops in Iraq) out of sight and out of mind despite soldiers still being wounded and dying there on a regular basis. That's very relatable to the viewing audience, and therefore hopefully gets at least some of them to think about extending that consideration to other issues.

- Sometimes people do things that we as laymen on the outside of the situation perceive as unnecessary or excessive, but we may not have all the facts they do. Castle and Beckett for instance wonder how many times similar incidents like this have gone down where they were the ones on the outside who were kept in the dark to prevent a panic. Is it better to have total openness and have people potentially living in a perpetual state of fear which can endanger lives and destroy economies, or to control the amount of information the public receives? I lean toward the side of the argument that favors openness except where ongoing diplomatic, intelligence, or law enforcement functions (that aren't illegal) would be compromised and place people at risk.

- Just because someone does do something we perceive as excessive or cruel (such as threatening to take away the woman's baby), doesn't mean they are cruel by nature. Adrian Pasdar's Homeland Security agent made this clear when he said he's not his job, and that ultimately what he does is in service of saving lives. I also thought it was smart having an American of Iranian descent like Pasdar play the role (plus he gave a great performance).

I thought it was a surprisingly thought-provoking, well-rounded, and dramatic episode and that going for the generic Islamist terrorist angle would have undermined the points they were trying to raise, and in addition go against the typical narrative of the show, where it's rarely the first and most obvious suspect that turns out to be the guilty one.

I was a little disappointed about the semi-copout on them being found, defrosted, and back in action so quickly, and the reset of Castle and Beckett to the relationship status quo, but those are minor points when weighed against some great acting and drama in the episode. The actress who played the Syrian woman, Pasdar, Fillion, and Katic all gave outstanding performances. Plus, you have to love Castle and Beckett's reactions to stopping the bomb at less than the last second.
__________________
We are Groot and Locutus of Bored.
I Am Groot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 06:40 PM   #224
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Excellent post, my Bored friend.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2 2011, 06:46 PM   #225
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Castle: Season 3 (Nathan Fillion, Stana Katic) - Discussion & Spoi

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
- Seeking to understand or even empathize with a terrorist group or other enemy does not equal approval of their actions. If they had been Islamists, I think a lot of people probably would have dismissed their cause out of hand as unrelatable. Instead, they chose to have the motivation be the loss of the unity we as a nation felt after 9/11 and the fact that people have largely put the war in Afghanistan (and to a lesser extent the fact that there are still troops in Iraq) out of sight and out of mind despite soldiers still being wounded and dying there on a regular basis. That's very relatable to the viewing audience, and therefore hopefully gets at least some of them to think about extending that consideration to other issues.
Not to mention that it simply makes a more interesting story if the villains have some ambiguity or identifiable motives. The problem with interpreting story content purely in political terms is that writing fiction isn't solely about polemic. It can have a message, but if a story isn't engaging in and of itself, then the message won't be as effectively conveyed. So a writer's first priority is usually going to be telling a good story.


I also thought it was smart having an American of Iranian descent like Pasdar play the role (plus he gave a great performance).
Oh, I didn't realize that. Might've made things more nuanced if his character had been written as Iranian-American as well.


I was a little disappointed about the semi-copout on them being found, defrosted, and back in action so quickly...
Well, the alternative was that they'd die, so I'd call that a necessary copout. And I like it that it was Alexis's knowledge of her father (that he would never fail to leave her a message) that alerted Ryan and Espinoza to track them down, although I wish we'd actually gotten to see Alexis telling them that rather than hearing about it secondhand. (Is there some reason Molly C. Quinn has so little screen time lately? Perhaps she's been studying for finals or something.)

The actress who played the Syrian woman
Bahar Soomekh. Who's actually Iranian by birth.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
castle, nathan fillion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:08 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.