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Old September 12 2010, 09:08 PM   #46
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

Psion wrote: View Post
Huh? RCA, why do you think this comes across as a TNG-era refit? I'd think of it more as an alternate pre-TMP ... emphasis on the "alternate".
I enjoy the various ways that people try to fit these designs into a logical progression of eras - they used to classify them that way in the download area of 3DW, and mine would wind up all over the map. I really give no particular thought to that when I build one.

There are various details that I carried forward from the TOS ship - but then, so did Church.
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Old September 12 2010, 10:55 PM   #47
Psion
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Re: "Challenger"

Dennis wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
Huh? RCA, why do you think this comes across as a TNG-era refit? I'd think of it more as an alternate pre-TMP ... emphasis on the "alternate".
I enjoy the various ways that people try to fit these designs into a logical progression of eras - they used to classify them that way in the download area of 3DW, and mine would wind up all over the map. I really give no particular thought to that when I build one.

There are various details that I carried forward from the TOS ship - but then, so did Church.
And I think that's fantastic. As much as I love the original Enterprise, I'm bored to tears with it and prefer to see new takes on the old girl. Naturally, the more creative efforts will be harder and harder to classify. Vektor's work and Deg3D have both done a fantastic job keeping the look amazingly close to the original and yet refined and more creative. And your experiments go a little farther afield and yet still have a solid, believable feel, like something that comes out of an alternate universe. I love it!
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Old September 12 2010, 11:07 PM   #48
YARN
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Re: "Challenger"

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The Church nacelles are like every other good Trek spaceship - they look really good from some angles and a little weird from others. I see the "droop" effect but it's only a nuisance in a still shot from one angle. If anything, the things seem to rise rather extremely from front to back in most views.
It seems that you don't want to say much that is unflattering about the new design. That's fine. Indeed, better than fine, that's mature and professional.

I submit, however, that the JJ-Prise nacelles look droopy from more than just one angle, that the amount of droopiness is in fact a flaw (rather than a sure-sign of a good design), and that this is a flaw that could be corrected with a few simple tweaks.

Yes, there is an admirable boldness to the new design and it does look better in motion (with copious lens flare - LOL), than in still images. Nevertheless, the high praise which your latest design has garnered here shows, I think, that it is a design which could possibly be improved upon in some aspects. In short, the last film's ship didn't really "nail it" the way the TMP design did.
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Old September 12 2010, 11:18 PM   #49
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Re: "Challenger"

Y'know the more I see this, the more I find I'm liking it better than the TMP Enterprise. I think it'd make a nice variant refit of the Constitution class, possibly one that was produced alongside the Enterprise variant.
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Old September 12 2010, 11:57 PM   #50
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

YARN wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
The Church nacelles are like every other good Trek spaceship - they look really good from some angles and a little weird from others. I see the "droop" effect but it's only a nuisance in a still shot from one angle. If anything, the things seem to rise rather extremely from front to back in most views.
It seems that you don't want to say much that is unflattering about the new design. That's fine. Indeed, better than fine, that's mature and professional.
It's also what I think.

You know, the Excelsior is a remarkably popular design now, considering how widely it was reviled in fandom when there was any concern at all - for some months after ST III - in fandom that the next version of the Enterprise might resemble it. The most common complaint then was proportions - the nacelles were too long, the engineering section was impossibly long, the whole thing too squat. That the designers at ILM were so direct in expressing their preference for it and its advantages as a shooting model in public didn't help matters at all, and when one of them said in a Cinefantastique interview the thing about the existing Enterprise that the Abrams folks would probably never say - "I hate that ship" - matters went from bad to worse. Really, all this boiled down to then - or now - was "it's really different from what I expect."
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Old September 13 2010, 12:59 AM   #51
YARN
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Re: "Challenger"

Dennis wrote: View Post
It's also what I think.
Very well, but look at the very pics you've posted in this thread. The droopiness effect can be seen in more than one angle even in your less aggressively curved design. Quite simply, it's there and it's a little odd.

NOTE: have you noticed how the nacelles seem "off" (in terms of angle - dipping downward at the rear) in some physical model versions of the ship? Is this due to the extreme rise up front that you noted?

Dennis wrote: View Post
You know, the Excelsior is a remarkably popular design now, considering how widely it was reviled in fandom when there was any concern at all - for some months after ST III - in fandom that the next version of the Enterprise might resemble it. The most common complaint then was proportions - the nacelles were too long, the engineering section was impossibly long, the whole thing too squat. That the designers at ILM were so direct in expressing their preference for it and its advantages as a shooting model in public didn't help matters at all, and when one of them said in a Cinefantastique interview the thing about the existing Enterprise that the Abrams folks would probably never say - "I hate that ship" - matters went from bad to worse. Really, all this boiled down to then - or now - was "it's really different from what I expect."
The argument that designs are just different (that is, people simply didn't like it, because it violated "expectations" of the norm) kind of defeats the purpose of attempting to improve design, critique design, or evaluatively compare designs. I cannot, for example, really praise your design as being much improved unless we have an image/standard against which we make that judgment.

With regard to the Excelsior, it is IMO, a lesser design than the TMP ship. The nostalgia for the design, is probably driven by just that (i.e., nostalgia) compounded by the fact that we never really saw it on screen that much and never as the hero ship (the grass is always greener...). I think the Enterprise B was an improvement of the design, but no, it's not worthy of the iconic status that the TOS and TMP ships achieved.
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Old September 13 2010, 02:25 AM   #52
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

YARN wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
It's also what I think.
Very well, but look at the very pics you've posted in this thread.

I really think I have, thanks.
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Old September 13 2010, 02:56 AM   #53
sojourner
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Re: "Challenger"

YARN wrote: View Post

With regard to the Excelsior, it is IMO, a lesser design than the TMP ship. The nostalgia for the design, is probably driven by just that (i.e., nostalgia) compounded by the fact that we never really saw it on screen that much and never as the hero ship (the grass is always greener...). I think the Enterprise B was an improvement of the design, but no, it's not worthy of the iconic status that the TOS and TMP ships achieved.
To each his own. I personally loved the Excelsior from it's first appearance. It's sleek and looks fast standing still. I can't stand the travesty that is the "glued on bits" look of Ent-b.
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Old September 13 2010, 04:02 AM   #54
YARN
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Re: "Challenger"

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I really think I have, thanks.
I wasn't suggesting you hadn't, but rather that the evidence of your own (formidable) handiwork presents the illusion of a droop from more than one angle.
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Old September 15 2010, 07:40 AM   #55
ST-One
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Re: "Challenger"

Anything new on this mesh?
Perhaps some here would enjoy to see these large ortho-renders you posted at SFM?
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Old September 15 2010, 04:34 PM   #56
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

You can see them at the link below - they're quite large and they were done during the last days of current work on the model so the lighting and textures are not complete:

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/a...hp?albumid=187
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Old September 16 2010, 07:44 AM   #57
ST-One
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Re: "Challenger"

Seems I was wrong; no one cares...

David cgc wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
David cgc, incoming PM.
I tried to reply, but the system yelled at me. Suffice it to say, thanks, and watch this space.
I'm still watching...
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Old September 16 2010, 03:28 PM   #58
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

David cgc wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
David cgc, incoming PM.
I tried to reply, but the system yelled at me. Suffice it to say, thanks, and watch this space.
Missed this - I guess I should clear out my PM box; all those death threats mount up fast.

Thanks.
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Old September 16 2010, 05:38 PM   #59
Psion
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Re: "Challenger"

Dennis wrote: View Post
David cgc wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
David cgc, incoming PM.
I tried to reply, but the system yelled at me. Suffice it to say, thanks, and watch this space.
Missed this - I guess I should clear out my PM box; all those death threats mount up fast.
Yeah, sorry about that.
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Old September 16 2010, 10:16 PM   #60
HarryM
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Re: "Challenger"

The Excelsior was really an adversary ship, so they likely made it look more squat, wide and powerful from the front end to emphasize that. The Enterprise is a "tall ship", Excelsior is the Merrimac/C.S.S Virginia. With that big black grill on the engineering section it kind of reminds me of ED-209. From the side its a different story, long and elegant lines.

Anyway, I like the Challenger, nice take on the Refit styling.
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