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Old September 5 2010, 03:40 PM   #16
DarKush
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

^
JD,

FYI, Kyle Katarn only plays a minor role in LOTF and Jaden Korr is not present at all in LOTF from what I recall. If he does show up, its a mention. Crosscurrent gives you more of what Korr was doing during the events of LOTF than the actual series, though even that is probably a page at the most of recollection/reflection. However, that page explains a lot of his motivation in Crosscurrent.

Katarn plays even less of a role in the first five books of FOTJ. Korr only got one brief scene in FOTJ so far. So, I wouldn't get too amped about either series if you expect to see a lot of Katarn or Korr.

In fact one of my major criticisms of both LOTF and FOTJ is the poor use of the Jedi Council and other Jedi besides the Skywalker-Solos. The Jedi Council dithers way too much in both series.
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Old September 5 2010, 04:04 PM   #17
Mr Light
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

I think my least favorite thing about the Post-ROTJ novels is how pacifist and do-nothing all the Jedi are. Obviously this decision was made way before the Prequels came out and now they're stuck with it. But the Prequels showed the Jedi to be war generals while the NJO Jedi had a long tiresome debate about whether they should be fighting an extragalactic invasion because it might turn them to the dark side

Much as I love Luke in the Post-ROTJ novels, his reluctance to take action is really annoying.
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Old September 5 2010, 05:01 PM   #18
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

^That really kinda agrivates me. Of the books I've read so far most have had some really cool supporting characters, and I was really hoping as time went on they would take a bigger role. Especially the younger characters, after all the big three are getting up there, hell even Jaina must be getting into her thirties by now. This isn't enough to change my mind about the books, but it definitly does lower my anticipation a tiny bit.
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Old September 5 2010, 05:50 PM   #19
DarKush
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

Mr Light wrote: View Post
I think my least favorite thing about the Post-ROTJ novels is how pacifist and do-nothing all the Jedi are. Obviously this decision was made way before the Prequels came out and now they're stuck with it. But the Prequels showed the Jedi to be war generals while the NJO Jedi had a long tiresome debate about whether they should be fighting an extragalactic invasion because it might turn them to the dark side

Much as I love Luke in the Post-ROTJ novels, his reluctance to take action is really annoying.
To be honest that's the debate I wish they had had in the Clone Wars. Perhaps not onscreen but in a novel or comic, or it could have been more of a long-running theme running throughout the PT. I think it popped up every now and then, but I think the Jedi took to being generals a bit too fast. I mean, there seemed to be that at least some planets had militaries, and many of the ships were staffed by clones and other officers, so it stands to reason that there were trained military officers out there. I think there should've been some debate at least about if the Jedi were the best choice to be military commanders when there were other trained officers out there. It would seem like the Jedi would be mediating the war, not leading it, from how they were described in TPM.

Granted the comics which predated it showed all manner of Jedi warriors, but the movies supercede them in terms of canon. If they had bought the Jedi in as generals after the failure of Republic forces, or maybe the CW had led to a schism among the Jedi, with some fighting, some abstaining, similar to how things went down in the Knights of the Old Republic comic, I think that would've made more sense to me.

I never quite bought the Jedi jumping forward to lead this army created for mysterious purposes, which was just conveniently produced in time to counter the Separatists. It seemed like some Jedi at least would be suspicious of that.

As for Luke's reluctance, to some extent I disagree. Luke has taken the field in every major book series I've read. Now, the problem is that they've made him so powerful that the battles might become lopsided or they have to make the threat so powerful that it's ridiculous. Or they have to make up some excuse to have Luke hold back or to avoid fighting, or going all out, like he's afraid of going to the dark side or something. The desire to make Luke the greatest Jedi (notwithstanding the PT making Anakin the 'most powerful Jedi ever'), has limited them a little regarding story. Though I think Del Ray has done a good job producing some villains like the Yuuzhan Vong and situations that at least test or strain Luke's abilities sometimes. They present obstacles that couldn't always be solved with a simple lightsaber stroke. Some of their villains, unfortunately, like in LOTF, never live up to the hype, but NJO and FOTJ offered some pretty worthy adversaries.
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Old September 5 2010, 05:55 PM   #20
DarKush
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

JD wrote: View Post
^That really kinda agrivates me. Of the books I've read so far most have had some really cool supporting characters, and I was really hoping as time went on they would take a bigger role. Especially the younger characters, after all the big three are getting up there, hell even Jaina must be getting into her thirties by now. This isn't enough to change my mind about the books, but it definitly does lower my anticipation a tiny bit.
I agree that the SW novel writers have squandered a lot of cool characters. At the force.net website there was a debate, probably still ongoing, about how continued focus on the Big Three is hurting the SW EU. There's pro and con arguments. Though I think the focus is to some extent. And it doesn't need to be because there are good characters out there, they just aren't getting the development and exposure needed so that Del Ray or Lucasfilm or whoever can feel unafraid enough to hand off the reins to them.

The comics don't have this problem and have created some pretty memorable protagonists who, while they will never be as popular as the Big Three, seem to sell books and create fans. I just with the novels would take more chances in this arena and start putting the Big Three in the background and letting a new generation emerge to carry the books forward.
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Old September 5 2010, 06:04 PM   #21
Temis the Vorta
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

Mr Light wrote: View Post
I think my least favorite thing about the Post-ROTJ novels is how pacifist and do-nothing all the Jedi are. Obviously this decision was made way before the Prequels came out and now they're stuck with it. But the Prequels showed the Jedi to be war generals while the NJO Jedi had a long tiresome debate about whether they should be fighting an extragalactic invasion because it might turn them to the dark side

Much as I love Luke in the Post-ROTJ novels, his reluctance to take action is really annoying.
I dunno, seems like a reasonable fear. Of course Lucas could have helped the NJO out a bit (was the PT made before or after the NJO?) by depicting Anakin's military career more definitively as a major cause of his fall to the Dark Side.

It makes sense in one way - if you use the Force in violent ways for an extended period of time, why wouldn't it have an impact on your mentality? It makes no sense in another way - the Jedi have lightsabers and are obviously geared up to be some form of law enforcement, so are all of them at risk? And is the risk worth it? Can't the Republic's regular military handle the war-fighting and the Jedi can do something else, like roam around righting wrongs like the Lone Ranger?

Come to think of it, the martial aspect of the Jedi isn't the only way they could have organized themselves. The Force doesn't impel you towards violence, it just makes it a lot easier to be effective with violence. But they could also have been power-behind-the-throne types, using only Jedi mind control, or evolved in other ways having nothing to do with the exercise of political power.

Anyway I like the fact that they're having the debate at all. It shows the novels are thinking about the ramifications of the Force in interesting ways, which is something I wanted to see more of in the movies (or any of, haw!)
I never quite bought the Jedi jumping forward to lead this army created for mysterious purposes, which was just conveniently produced in time to counter the Separatists. It seemed like some Jedi at least would be suspicious of that.
Yeah the characters were made to be way too gullible in the PT. And the problem with the clone army is that it implies the Republic had no regular troops willing to defend it! A Republic that can't earn the defense of its people deserves to fall. Yet the Empire had all sorts of non-clone Stormtroopers, so what gives? Did the Empire have a better health plan?

The Clone War label could have just as easily worked for a war where the bad guys were the ones producing the clone army. The Republic should have had plenty of people willing to defend it, even in a trumped up war. The Jedi should have been the most suspicious of the trumping-up, but the common people would have been less so. The Jedi might have been following along with popular sentiment rather than getting out in front. That sort of story is what makes sense.
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Old September 5 2010, 06:17 PM   #22
JD
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

DarKush wrote: View Post
The comics don't have this problem and have created some pretty memorable protagonists who, while they will never be as popular as the Big Three, seem to sell books and create fans. I just with the novels would take more chances in this arena and start putting the Big Three in the background and letting a new generation emerge to carry the books forward.
Oh yeah I can agree with you there. I jumped into Republic with the first 5 or 6 Clone Wars trades, and Quinlan Vos quickly became a favorite. Same goes for most of the main characters in Legacy.

Oh, and apparently Quinlan is (probably) going to be in the new season of CW!
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Old September 5 2010, 06:31 PM   #23
DarKush
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

Actually, due to the PT, Stormtroopers are now a mix of clones and non-clones. Not all the clones are from the Jango template.

(Beware of potential spoilers)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_troopers

Otherwise, I like your ideas. I remember reading the Star Wars novelization as a kid and I always got the impression that Obi Wan was fighting against the clones. I didn't mind how GL actually did it, Order 66 was one of the best and most tragic moments in all of the saga, but the Jedi fighting clones would've been more exciting than them chopping down droids-wiseacre droids at that.

As for Quinlan Vos, I'm a big fan. I hope they don't screw him over in CW S3, but it's cool that they are bringing him aboard.
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Old September 5 2010, 06:36 PM   #24
Mr Light
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

The New Jedi Order series ran from October 1999 to 2003, so the first book came out just a few months after Phantom Menace. Of course this also means that the books were being planned and written several years before, probably in tandem with the Prequel Trilogy production.

So there's a pretty clear delineation in the Star Wars mythos. There's the "Bantam Era" of 1991 to 1999 where books were made with no clue what would occur in the Prequels. Then there's the Del Rey Era (1999 to Present) where they were made in tandem with the Prequels.

This means that there's a lot of things from the Bantam books that were later horribly out of place, books that dealt with clones from the Clone Wars and Luke's mysterious mother and what it meant to be a Jedi. But they've been retroactively fan-wanked into making sense
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Old September 5 2010, 06:41 PM   #25
JD
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

^There's also the wives and children of the Jedi stuff in Children of the Jedi. Did they ever find a way to retcon that one?
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Old September 5 2010, 07:10 PM   #26
Temis the Vorta
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

Actually, due to the PT, Stormtroopers are now a mix of clones and non-clones. Not all the clones are from the Jango template.
You mean in the OT or the PT? In the OT, there were never supposed to be any clones, that's a retcon.

I remember reading the Star Wars novelization as a kid and I always got the impression that Obi Wan was fighting against the clones.
I assumed the war was over clones, not that they were fighting. The bad guys were using cloning to create slaves and that was a terrible violation of human (sentient) life that the Republic was trying to stamp out.

I don't like robots or clones in the fighting. It's a cheap way for Lucas to sanitize violence. If someone gets blown up, it should be a "real person." Of course the clones are as real as anyone but the implication struck me that they weren't being treated like that, the Republic thought it was okay to breed them for cannon fodder which is the total opposite of what I thought was going to happen!
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Old September 5 2010, 07:16 PM   #27
PsychoPere
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

JD wrote: View Post
^There's also the wives and children of the Jedi stuff in Children of the Jedi. Did they ever find a way to retcon that one?
Apparently it has been, though I didn't realize it at the time because I had forgotten about Children of the Jedi. In Karen Traviss's Republic Commando novels, a "rogue" sect of Jedi under the leadership of a Master Djinn Altis is featured, with Callista Masana (Callista Ming) one of its members. The Altisian Jedi had no issue with relationships/marriage or with Masters taking more than one apprentice. In fact, the sect wasn't even entirely Jedi; there were many non-Jedi in their community as well. Looking at Wookiepedia entries for the sect, Callista, and the RC series, it seems the Altisian Jedi were first created by Traviss in The Clone Wars: No Prisoners before she brought them briefly into the RC series.


Temis: The more of your thoughts I read re: the Clone Wars and the GAR, the more convinced I am that you would greatly appreciate the way Traviss approaches the clones in the RC series. For a series that began as a tie-in to a video game, it really does handle well the issues you rightfully bring up.
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Old September 5 2010, 07:46 PM   #28
Temis the Vorta
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

Cool, I'll check those out!
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Old September 5 2010, 09:54 PM   #29
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

JD wrote: View Post
I must admit this has already been much more positive than I thought. I figured I'd get nothing but hate for the post NJO books. I must admit, I have been reading about the events of the LoTF and FotJ books on wookiepedia, and they do sound pretty interesting.

What about the Bane books, and Crosscurrent?
I found the first Bane book okay-- it didn't live up to the potential set up by Jedi vs. Sith-- and the second one hugely tedious. I didn't bother with the third.

Crosscurrent was good, solid Star Wars-y fun. Who cares if it stars characters you never heard of before? So did a movie called Star Wars back in 1977.
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Old September 5 2010, 10:47 PM   #30
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Re: How far should I go with the Star Wars novels?

Temis,

In the PT, at least in the three prequel films there were no storm troopers. The storm troopers had to be created during the Dark Times between Episodes III and IV, and I speculate that new clones (not solely based on Jango) and non-clones joined the Imperial ranks. I'm assuming that the storm troopers in the OT were a mix of clones and non-clones.
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