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Old August 30 2010, 12:50 AM   #1
enlisted person
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World Peace

I been thinking about this since reading the other thread. Isn't it a much better dream to wish for world freedom?
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Old August 30 2010, 01:11 AM   #2
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Re: World Peace

Let me guess, the 'freedom' you're thinking of is that brand which accepts - nay, requires - oppression to the extent necessary to protect the peculiar institution of private property, thereby - in the absence of further hypocritical anti-freedom measures such as taxation and labour regulation - inevitably leading to the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few and the exploitation of the masses; and thus to conflict.
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Old August 30 2010, 01:12 AM   #3
MetalPants
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Re: World Peace

^^^Workers of the world, unite!
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Old August 30 2010, 01:14 AM   #4
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Re: World Peace

Freedom from what, exactly?
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Old August 30 2010, 01:24 AM   #5
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Re: World Peace

How are you oppressing someone by not letting them steal your stuff?
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Old August 30 2010, 01:26 AM   #6
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Re: World Peace

Not freedom from anything, just basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech, freedom from oppression, things like the people of the soviet union did not enjoy during its long period of peace with other nations with no wars. Just because there is "peace" and a country is not sending folks off to war, does not mean that the people have any freedoms. I would much rather see a people waring to get their freedom, than living under peaceful oppression.
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Old August 30 2010, 01:40 AM   #7
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Re: World Peace

enlisted person wrote: View Post
Not freedom from anything, just basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech, freedom from oppression, things like the people of the soviet union did not enjoy during its long period of peace with other nations with no wars.
I might agree with your definition, but you would be surprised to know that not everybody wants that. In the end, you'll just put them in another kind of oppression.

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I would much rather see a people waring to get their freedom, than living under peaceful oppression.
I would prefer that for myself too, but I would much rather see other people decide for themselves.
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Old August 30 2010, 01:42 AM   #8
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Re: World Peace

^ But people in the Soviet Union weren't being oppressed by capitalists.

Sure, they got shot in the back of the head if they didn't meet the Central Committee's production quota laid out in the 5-year plan, but people, once freed from capitalist oppression, like being shot in the back of the head for not working hard enough. They also enjoy mass starvation, secret police kicking in their doors, getting ratted out by their neighbors and sent to a labor camp, and standing all day in bread lines at a communist bread distribution center that doesn't actually have any bread.

I mean, it sure beats driving down the 101 in a Mercedes convertible, going from a pilates class on the beach to dinner at some L.A. hotspot - where in between ordering the wine and some lamb come the moans "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"
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Old August 30 2010, 01:48 AM   #9
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Re: World Peace

You don't have some bunnies that need watchin', g?
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Old August 30 2010, 01:48 AM   #10
Alidar Jarok
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Re: World Peace

I feel at this point it's a good idea to point out the debate between positive freedom and negative freedom. Some have called his debate the defining ideological characteristic of the Cold War. I tend to disagree and define it as two paranoid superpowers trying to look more powerful than the other so as to not show that they're scared.

Anyway, Negative Liberty means "Freedom from". In other words, it's the freedom from an oppressive force that takes away your rights (right to say what you want, right to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm another, etc).

Positive Liberty means "Freedom to do". It focuses on doing everything possible to ensure people have the ability to achieve their goals. It would focus more on providing public access to give speeches on (a private newspaper, for example, might not publish your side of the story, so your freedom is restricted even if the government isn't the one doing it) or perhaps free education to help you with a job later.

Of course, they're not exclusive and, when taken to extremes, both get pretty crazy. But both are important. When practical, you'd want "World Freedom" to include both kinds of freedom (although I feel that, if that happens, you'd still have world peace, since war is a restriction on freedom).
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Old August 30 2010, 01:50 AM   #11
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Re: World Peace

gturner wrote: View Post
How are you oppressing someone by not letting them steal your stuff?
The ownership relation exists entirely in one's mind. The notion that one can claim bits of the universe as extensions of oneself is absurd. If I choose to invest my energy in a particular way ... then I have chosen to invest my energy in a particular way. That's as far as it goes; I have no reason, no right to expect anything in return. The institution of private property is an illusion fashioned and maintained between humans for pragmatic purposes, and is infinitely malleable - in the form of taxation, eminent domain, and so on - to those purposes. When appropriately regulated, it seems to work reasonably well; indeed, it may well be the best solution for social units larger than our primate heritage prepares us to deal with*. But it is merely a solution, one amongst alternatives; not some innate right of Man. Indeed, the latter doctrine practically requires religion to make sense of itself: "and God awarded unto Man dominion over all earthly things". Or whatever.

* >~150 people. That's about the point where we stop seeing people as people. Look it up.
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Old August 30 2010, 01:52 AM   #12
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Re: World Peace

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
enlisted person wrote: View Post
Not freedom from anything, just basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech, freedom from oppression, things like the people of the soviet union did not enjoy during its long period of peace with other nations with no wars.
I might agree with your definition, but you would be surprised to know that not everybody wants that. In the end, you'll just put them in another kind of oppression.

enlisted person wrote: View Post
I would much rather see a people waring to get their freedom, than living under peaceful oppression.
I would prefer that for myself too, but I would much rather see other people decide for themselves.
Yes but that is the rub, an oppressed people lack the freedom to decide for themselves. A free people can decide what they want and vote for it.
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Old August 30 2010, 01:59 AM   #13
iguana_tonante
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Re: World Peace

All depends on how you define "freedom". I have a feeling my definition and yours might differer significantly.
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Old August 30 2010, 02:05 AM   #14
Rii
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Re: World Peace

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Yes but that is the rub, an oppressed people lack the freedom to decide for themselves. A free people can decide what they want and vote for it.
Oppression is part and parcel of democracy. Why do the people need to vote? Why don't they simply each act as they would've voted? Because voting isn't about oneself, it's about others: I vote to oppress you with the power of majority rule.
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Old August 30 2010, 02:12 AM   #15
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Re: World Peace

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
All depends on how you define "freedom". I have a feeling my definition and yours might differer significantly.
The basic freedoms like free speech, the freedom the choose your own leaders, etc. Things that most of the people posting the this board enjoy.
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