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Old August 26 2010, 10:47 AM   #1
Vurok
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The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Janeway had no right to affect the timeline, causing untold changes to billions of people's lives - even wiping people out of existence altogether (such as Sabrina Wildman). It was an immoral act. Discuss.
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Old August 26 2010, 11:18 AM   #2
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

it was all a holodeck. didn't you notice fat riker had replaced neelix and was asking all the crew about feelings?
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Old August 26 2010, 11:30 AM   #3
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

If you make that claim for this story then you have to make that claim for every time travel story ever told.
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Old August 26 2010, 02:00 PM   #4
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Deckerd wrote: View Post
If you make that claim for this story then you have to make that claim for every time travel story ever told.
True. But then I suppose you can make an excuse for those who time traveled by accident...

Despite being a Voyager and Janeway fan I too find the morals of "Endgame" to be shockingly questionable. Add to the selfish altering of time the overuse of the borg plus the icky C/7 relationship and here's a finale that I haven't been able to re-watch. In fact, even though I own Season 7 I usually stop at "The Void". End on a high note.
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Old August 26 2010, 02:04 PM   #5
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Deckerd wrote: View Post
If you make that claim for this story then you have to make that claim for every time travel story ever told.
Indeed, same is true of Harry and Chakotay in 'Timeless' and most other time travel stories.

The travellers from the 29th Century fighting the Temporal Cold War were moral though, because their actions were in retaliation and focused on restoring the timeline.
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Old August 26 2010, 02:18 PM   #6
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

What exactly happened at the end of TNG in Season 7?
Time travel.
And a blatantly obvious overuse of it.

For what?
For the purpose of saving mankind from extinction, and thus changing the alternate future in which the Enterprise-D is still alive and well (even retrofitted).

Q was the main player here, and Picard was an idiot who made a mistake.

Why not simply let it all run it's course and allow humanity to be destroyed if we're all for the preservation of the timeline?

Seriously ... virtually every time-travel episode had some kind of an selfish factor involved that placed doubts onto the heroes morals and whatnot.
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Old August 26 2010, 02:46 PM   #7
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

All Good Things was about mirror universes. Picard was having no impact on the futures he was visiting after blundering through the past and present in the 2 other timelines from the story which were taking place. It was a sideways story not a back and forth story. Okay. Diagonal. Mirror universes at different points in history.

Janeway was a moron. She thought she was creating a mirror universe when she told Tuvok she wouldn't be coming to see him any more, and the Queen was a Moron when she told Old janeway that the she old janeway would be dead if she killed her younger self despite... Okay so there's no practical way the Queen wouldn't know for sure that the kathy's past and future were now disconnected and she could have mistook it all for a predestination paradox. because anything other than a predestination paradox is illegal under federation law.

Why would Sabrina and Harry commit suicide?

In most stories timelines are overwritten, in others: alternate timelines are created veering away from established continuitybirthing new worlds of possibility. Janeway was either a monster or a tourist, but then if she was just running off to, creating a mirror universe to play in and there were no harmful effects to her home present... then why dispatch a Starship? Unless they were actually worried about cultural contamination, that Janeway's social impact on a parallel universe would be unfair rather than deadly, and gods help them but what if the Borg, more borg a universe with two factions of borg, followed her trail back to the 25th century?

Again it's probably a mirror universe story, or Kathryn's a right utter (*&^.
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Old August 26 2010, 02:57 PM   #8
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

If it wasn't supposed to happen the way it did, then why didn't the time police come in and fix the damage like all the times before?
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Old August 26 2010, 03:00 PM   #9
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

^^ Because it was supposed to happen, because even though it was immoral it was a part of their 29th century history and because the Admiral paid for her sin by dying a horrible, gruesome glorious death.
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Old August 26 2010, 03:14 PM   #10
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

I'm not sure the time cops would care how the Admiral died. But, based on what we've been told of the Trek universe, I believe it was, in fact, supposed to happen.

Otherwise, it would have been corrected by the cops.
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Old August 26 2010, 03:27 PM   #11
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Or because she smashed the 29th's century federation's dominance over time, and time's NEW masters approved of Janeway destroying Humanities future which gave them their opportunity to rise to the top it was THEY who needed sleeping dogs to lay.

These are the idiots who forgot to take the Doctor's Mobile emitter with them when they towed Voyager back to the future... Or was that part of a larger plan too?

Besides we have watched several conflicting and inconsolable timelines over the years from season to season progressing each towards a mildly to completely different 29th century.

In relativity Janeway says "What's the Temporal Prime Directive" but in Shattered She says that she hates the Temporal Prime Directive. These two different Janeway's had completely different educations at Starfleet Academy and there could have been all manner of other differences in their lives that... Because of Kes in Fury, the Vidiians wouldn't of been able to do Squat in Deadlock and both Naomi might have lived, which means that she there's every chance she wouldn't have crossed Kim over if it wasn't to replace the baby too.

Besides ITS THE WRONG FRICKING QUEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In my mind, it just wasn't another actress playing the same person, it was another lady who was crowned instead of the usual monarch who was involved with Voyager all along which brings the criss cross of Picard meddling with Founders day right to the fore because it was "that" Queens interplexing beacon which upgraded the 21st century Borg into the colossus Kathryn met in Scorpion who are not the Borg anyone had ever met before because the story telling slipped sideways into a mirror universe created by timetravellers splitting the timelines willy smurfing nilly.

Time was already out of joint. The future was unbound.
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Old August 26 2010, 03:29 PM   #12
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Or, y'know, the writers didn't bother about all that.
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Old August 26 2010, 03:37 PM   #13
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Nah, that's too simple an answer.
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Old August 26 2010, 03:40 PM   #14
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

Adm_Hawthorne wrote: View Post
I'm not sure the time cops would care how the Admiral died. But, based on what we've been told of the Trek universe, I believe it was, in fact, supposed to happen.

Otherwise, it would have been corrected by the cops.
Exactly! If we all remember "Future's End", the Time Cop were willing to destroy Voyager & all onboard to prevent what they thought was Janeway destroying the lives on millions.

All those crewmen getting back home to their loved ones would have also caused a small baby boom.
The medical knowledge collected by the Doc. would allow more folks to live longer and a possibly more kids being born. So I don't see it killing millions in "Endgame" but rather an increase in population. Besides didn't we learn from the end of "YOH" that things don't change, instead they just might happen anyway?

Besides Trek is written for the Captains to be heroes, not villains.
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Last edited by exodus; August 26 2010 at 03:52 PM.
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Old August 26 2010, 03:51 PM   #15
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Re: The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

I sort of liked Endgame even although I've always believed time travel stories are utterly preposterous. We have to ignore so much non-science in ST but that has always been one leap of faith too far. On reflection, however, perhaps it's just that although Endgame was badly judged and silly, it was infinitely better than what the Enterprise fans got as their valediction.
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