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Old September 5 2010, 01:29 AM   #31
exodus
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Cepstrum wrote: View Post
Yeah, Vorik didn't usually take much initiative. And simply because he was an ensign and would outrank all enlisted crew doesn't tell us his relationship vis-á-vis other engineering officers. It seemed there were quite a few officers there.

The best — only one that I recall — counterexample is in DS9: Starship Down, in which the engineering staff consisted entirely of enlisted technicians, not even true engineers. Worf was the only officer to direct them (and that was because he was the only officer stuck down there).


And Kim's rank of ensign was strange. He was explicitly referred to as a "senior officer" and all Ops people reported directly to him. That was highly unusual, I suspect. I can't believe that on a newly commisioned officer's first duty would be to run Ops on a significant vessel.

Harry acquitted himself so well, and so many officers died, that I have trouble accepting Janeway's rationale for never promoting him. How would it hurt to make him a lieutenant? Obviously she couldn't promote everyone to commander, but why not upgrade Kim?
.....because the ship still needs worker bees.
If everybody is a Lt., then who's the grunts?

I saw Harry's position as something similar to an intern.
He's titled as a senior officer due to him over achieving at the Academy, so he's got the status but lacks the experience for the actual rank. So he's working a job to achieve the experience for a future position in command. Being on the bridge puts him around that element.
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Old September 5 2010, 02:14 AM   #32
PsychoPere
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Leathco wrote: View Post
I disagree with the whole transferring off the flagship = a huge step down. Look at Riker, who ended up with Titan. Than again, he turned down a lot of earlier chances at promotion.
And when Riker was offered a command in "The Icarus Factor," one of the "cons" Picard cited was that he would go from being second-in-command of the most prestigious posting in the fleet to being captain of a starship no one had ever heard of posted out in the middle of nowhere. Granted, XO is a command position. It probably would be quite different for less experienced officers, such as Vorik, since they would have to get experience somewhere. Can't always count on the officers superior to you on your current ship to resign/die/etc., because you still may not get the promotion if a more experienced, more senior officer elsewhere in the fleet is interested in transferring to your ship -- something I bet would be quite common with an Enterprise.
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Old September 6 2010, 02:02 PM   #33
Pauln6
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

exodus wrote: View Post
Cepstrum wrote: View Post
And Kim's rank of ensign was strange. He was explicitly referred to as a "senior officer" and all Ops people reported directly to him. That was highly unusual, I suspect. I can't believe that on a newly commisioned officer's first duty would be to run Ops on a significant vessel.

Harry acquitted himself so well, and so many officers died, that I have trouble accepting Janeway's rationale for never promoting him. How would it hurt to make him a lieutenant? Obviously she couldn't promote everyone to commander, but why not upgrade Kim?
.....because the ship still needs worker bees.
If everybody is a Lt., then who's the grunts?

I saw Harry's position as something similar to an intern.
He's titled as a senior officer due to him over achieving at the Academy, so he's got the status but lacks the experience for the actual rank. So he's working a job to achieve the experience for a future position in command. Being on the bridge puts him around that element.
Kim should have been promoted even if only to Lt(j.g.) half way through the series. It would have had no major impact on the command structure and would have recognised his large contribution. Officer's with far less experience gain promotions on other ships and Tuvok got a promotion during the run so it's not as if Janeway had no authority to do it.
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Old September 6 2010, 09:50 PM   #34
Cepstrum
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Cepstrum wrote: View Post
And Kim's rank of ensign was strange. He was explicitly referred to as a "senior officer" and all Ops people reported directly to him. That was highly unusual, I suspect. I can't believe that on a newly commisioned officer's first duty would be to run Ops on a significant vessel.

Harry acquitted himself so well, and so many officers died, that I have trouble accepting Janeway's rationale for never promoting him. How would it hurt to make him a lieutenant? Obviously she couldn't promote everyone to commander, but why not upgrade Kim?
.....because the ship still needs worker bees.
If everybody is a Lt., then who's the grunts?

I saw Harry's position as something similar to an intern.
He's titled as a senior officer due to him over achieving at the Academy, so he's got the status but lacks the experience for the actual rank. So he's working a job to achieve the experience for a future position in command. Being on the bridge puts him around that element.
Kim should have been promoted even if only to Lt(j.g.) half way through the series. It would have had no major impact on the command structure and would have recognised his large contribution. Officer's with far less experience gain promotions on other ships and Tuvok got a promotion during the run so it's not as if Janeway had no authority to do it.
I agree. After the requisite years — during he performed admirably — he was due for a promotion.

Worse, in the casualty lists there are many dead, high ranking officers. One of them was even a full commander! Given the many deaths, his tenure and performance, I don't get he had to remain an ensign.
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Old September 6 2010, 10:07 PM   #35
Commander_Kaz
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Starbreaker wrote: View Post
I wonder whose idea it was to bring Vorik and Carey back for the last few episodes. They could have been useful for uh... a bunch of other episodes.


I wish we had seen more of Vorik in the series, but he does play a pretty prominent role in the after-Voyager books.
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Old September 7 2010, 05:49 PM   #36
exodus
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Cepstrum wrote: View Post
And Kim's rank of ensign was strange. He was explicitly referred to as a "senior officer" and all Ops people reported directly to him. That was highly unusual, I suspect. I can't believe that on a newly commisioned officer's first duty would be to run Ops on a significant vessel.

Harry acquitted himself so well, and so many officers died, that I have trouble accepting Janeway's rationale for never promoting him. How would it hurt to make him a lieutenant? Obviously she couldn't promote everyone to commander, but why not upgrade Kim?
.....because the ship still needs worker bees.
If everybody is a Lt., then who's the grunts?

I saw Harry's position as something similar to an intern.
He's titled as a senior officer due to him over achieving at the Academy, so he's got the status but lacks the experience for the actual rank. So he's working a job to achieve the experience for a future position in command. Being on the bridge puts him around that element.
Kim should have been promoted even if only to Lt(j.g.) half way through the series. It would have had no major impact on the command structure and would have recognised his large contribution. Officer's with far less experience gain promotions on other ships and Tuvok got a promotion during the run so it's not as if Janeway had no authority to do it.
His actions in eps. like "The Disease" shows Harry still isn't disappline enough yet. Harry follows behind someone as undisaplline as Tom Paris. Whatever Tom does, Harry does. A promotion depends on allot more than just being able to do a job. Harry also has to learn to lead by example. Having an affair against regulations, covering up an STD and being insubbordiate to the captain, speaking out of term, isn't going to get you squat for a promotion. Didn't Harry get a written repremand too? Wasn't Tuvok's promotion a compesation for being passed up as commander? Tuvok is also the only official senior Starfleet bridge officer & the only senior ranking member besides Carey left when everyone else died being pulled into the DQ by the Caretaker. Chakotay, Paris & Be'lanna aren't "officially" Starfleet officers anymore. His service to Starfleet preceeds all on Voyager.
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Old September 7 2010, 06:47 PM   #37
Cepstrum
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Still, officers in navies automatically receive promotions every few years (especially low ranking ones). My uncle went from ensign to lt. jg to full lt. in three years simply because of the timetable. Of course, if you have a lot of reprimands etc., then you don't get promoted. But after so many officer causalties, they would be short on lieutenants anyway.

I agree that by at least halfway through, he should've received a promotion. And why did Tom outrank him? He wasn't the model officer, had been demoted (and wasn't even in Starfleet at the time). Plus, aren't conn guys usually ensigns? Unlike Harry, Tom wasn't in charge of a dept with others reporting to him.
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Old September 7 2010, 07:14 PM   #38
exodus
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Cepstrum wrote: View Post
Still, officers in navies automatically receive promotions every few years (especially low ranking ones). My uncle went from ensign to lt. jg to full lt. in three years simply because of the timetable. Of course, if you have a lot of reprimands etc., then you don't get promoted. But after so many officer causalties, they would be short on lieutenants anyway.
Not really.
If you go back over Voyager, most of the casualties happened in reset eps.. So the death count isn't as high as you think.
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Old September 7 2010, 09:51 PM   #39
Cepstrum
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

exodus wrote: View Post
Cepstrum wrote: View Post
Still, officers in navies automatically receive promotions every few years (especially low ranking ones). My uncle went from ensign to lt. jg to full lt. in three years simply because of the timetable. Of course, if you have a lot of reprimands etc., then you don't get promoted. But after so many officer causalties, they would be short on lieutenants anyway.
Not really.
If you go back over Voyager, most of the casualties happened in reset eps.. So the death count isn't as high as you think.
True. There were, however, on screen and dialogue references to several deceased, mid and high ranking officers.

But I get and concede your point.


Hey, what this: should I start a poll? I'm thinking along the lines of whether Harry should have gotten a "box in his chair" around the same Tom got his "special box".
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Old September 8 2010, 10:05 AM   #40
Pauln6
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Tom's rank made no sense really. Helm is often manned by ensigns, he'd done nothing to deserve a senior rank, and his leadership skills were definitely inferior to Kim and Torres, especially considering the number of times their engineering skills benefitted or even saved the ship.
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Old September 8 2010, 02:48 PM   #41
exodus
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Tom's rank made no sense really. Helm is often manned by ensigns, he'd done nothing to deserve a senior rank, and his leadership skills were definitely inferior to Kim and Torres, especially considering the number of times their engineering skills benefitted or even saved the ship.
His Daddy was an Admiral and it would look good on Aunty Janeways service record if she could give his naughty son a second chance.

Tom's rank was a political move for Janeway, not much else...........at first.
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Old September 8 2010, 03:48 PM   #42
Pauln6
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

exodus wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Tom's rank made no sense really. Helm is often manned by ensigns, he'd done nothing to deserve a senior rank, and his leadership skills were definitely inferior to Kim and Torres, especially considering the number of times their engineering skills benefitted or even saved the ship.
His Daddy was an Admiral and it would look good on Aunty Janeways service record if she could give his naughty son a second chance.

Tom's rank was a political move for Janeway, not much else...........at first.
Ah right, sort of how NuPike groomed NuKirk for command after picking him up in that bar? "So tell me son, have you ever been in an Orion sauna?" I mean, it's not as if Kirk really earned such a rapid promotion is it? So from this we assume that Kim wasn't prepared to 'sit' on Janeway's promotion couch and Paris was?
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Old September 8 2010, 04:57 PM   #43
exodus
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Tom's rank made no sense really. Helm is often manned by ensigns, he'd done nothing to deserve a senior rank, and his leadership skills were definitely inferior to Kim and Torres, especially considering the number of times their engineering skills benefitted or even saved the ship.
His Daddy was an Admiral and it would look good on Aunty Janeways service record if she could give his naughty son a second chance.

Tom's rank was a political move for Janeway, not much else...........at first.
Ah right, sort of how NuPike groomed NuKirk for command after picking him up in that bar? "So tell me son, have you ever been in an Orion sauna?" I mean, it's not as if Kirk really earned such a rapid promotion is it? So from this we assume that Kim wasn't prepared to 'sit' on Janeway's promotion couch and Paris was?
Yep, Janeway was looking for Admiral pips on her uniform just like her dad. She wanted the quickest way with little effort. Remember in "Shattered" when Chakotay mentions Harry, Janeway scoffs at his name. Chakotay corrects her and tells her not to laugh because he becomes one of their best officers. Janeway didn't think much of Harry in getting her much of anything at first.
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Old September 14 2010, 02:19 PM   #44
kimc
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Tom's rank made no sense really. Helm is often manned by ensigns, he'd done nothing to deserve a senior rank, and his leadership skills were definitely inferior to Kim and Torres, especially considering the number of times their engineering skills benefitted or even saved the ship.
I always thought she restored his former rank because of his performance on the planet during "Caretaker". Besides, he had a reputation as a great pilot (well, before the accident) and Sadi was dead so the spot was open.
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Old September 28 2010, 06:49 PM   #45
jo jo
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

1) whos sadi
2) i think his rank should have been restored alot later on so he had had enough time to prome himself worthy of said rank
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