TMP Klingons: what were they thinking?

[Maurice]

Potemkin_Prod wrote:

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We do see a lot of other stuff in the dreaded Spock Fly-Thru (including Darth Vader).

There's no Vader. It's a momentary optical illusion caused by darkness showing between parts of the digitized Epsilon 9 station, and a glowing thing that sticks down from the top of the "space lips".
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmphd/tmphd2176.jpg

...watching V'ger destroy three Klingon battlecruisers, the audience actually CHEERED.

I never saw that kind if audience reaction, and I saw the film in the theater at least 5 times in two different towns. Interesting!

72 AUs in diameter. Three battlecruisers.... I've no problem with imaging the Klingons would love to attack. I just refuse to think of them as this stupid.

82. And I agree with you to a point. Spock immediately detected a shocking (as Sulu's reaction points out) 12th power energy field, which the Klingons should have spotted.

You believe that the Enterprise was traveling within the cloud at Warp Speed?

The film is very consistent about the use of the warp engines (at least insofar as the Enterprise is concerned). The nacelles glow only when the Enterprise is at warp, and the deflector glows blue only when the warp engines are on. Said nacelles are lit as the ship heads towards the cloud.

Futhermore, albeit not made plain in the film, the ship is seen overtaking V'ger from behind, which means they had to be going at warp until they got near it, unless you want to believe the entire cloud is a giant warp field.

Also, in the DE, the nacelles remain lit when the energy probe approaches the ship (at which point it would be traveling in reverse). The moment the ship gets grabbed by the tractor beam, the warp lighting on the nacelles and deflector go off and stay off till the final shot of the movie.

[Captrek]

Timo wrote:

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I still don't understand the objection. Sure, the target would try to defend itself. But the Klingons are firing multiple photon torpedoes at the target - strategic weapons intended to devastate entire cities and perhaps planets.

Do you understand how tiny a city or even a planet is compared to this power field? “Intended to devastate entire cities and perhaps planets” means “intended to be deployed against targets whose sizes are utterly negligible on the scale of this power field.” 13 trillion Earths could fit in that power field.

Essentially, they are attacking an enemy star system, which just happens to consist of swirling light effects instead of simple vacuum.

Swirling light effects that block sensors in a star system that has never been mapped. What the hell are they shooting at?

Attacking an enemy star system is a perfectly valid military maneuver in Star Trek, and a single starship (let alone three) should be capable of it in light of TOS precedent.

No. Attacking a star system is not a perfectly valid military maneuver, in the context of this discussion. The star system itself doesn’t really give a darn who’s controlling the bases and trade routes and supply lines andwhatnot. Attacking enemy ships and bases that are at known locations within a star system is a valid maneuver. But we’re not talking about militarily pacifying enemy bases and ships. We’re talking about firing torpedoes blindly into a star system in the hope of destroying some unknown object that is somewhere in that opaque star system and maintains a power field as large as the star system itself. That is not a valid military maneuver. (Actually, attacking a star itself becomes a possible military maneuver with Soran’s trilithium research in ST:GEN, and Stargate SG-1 pulled it off with a red-matter-like technology, but that’s hardly relevant in TMP, because the target is not a star.)

[Timo]

Do you understand how tiny a city or even a planet is compared to this power field?

But the Klingons didn't target the field. They ignored the field. Their actual target was tiny, even in terms of photon torpedo targets.

Swirling light effects that block sensors. What the hell are they shooting at?

Not at the cloud, that much is clear.

From the tactical projections, it seems the Klingons fly into the chasm on the horizontal plane of the cloud, probably at as high a warp as they dare, then fire their torpedoes even deeper into that chasm. Nothing inside the chasm seems to be offering resistance to the attack. And if they're targeting Manhattan at the bottom of the chasm, they don't need to know the exact location of Battery Park. Probably a detonation a few Manhattans to starboard of the target would still do damage to the enemy.

We’re talking about firing torpedoes blindly into a star system in the hope of destroying some unknown object that is somewhere in that opaque star system

It's a perfectly good assumption that the target is at dead center. Firing blindly is completely justified, then - that's how one fires missiles at Moscow, too, on the usually sound assumption that the city hasn't suddenly moved fifty kilometers to southwest.

Inexperienced space travelers might be in awe of a construct that is dozens of astronomical units wide, even if it is just an intangible field of some sort. Experienced space warriors will have learned when to ignore the nonessential, and when to press on to the target despite wonders left and right. A cruise missile heading for downtown Moscow wouldn't stop to admire the ring road network or the farmlands or the pretty cloud of smog, either!

Timo Saloniemi

[Nardpuncher]

Why can't anyone ever just agree with an OP? Everyone has to be like somebody who sighs "I don't know..maybe" whenever anyone says something.

The Klingons were stupid to do that, the OP is right.

[Timo]

Naah. The OP and you are dead wrong. Why can't you just agree with that?

Timo Saloniemi

[Psion]

Yep, this is pretty meaningless. Captrek seems convinced that the Klingons were shooting at clouds, despite evidence from the theatrical release that they knew there was an object at the center. In that original release, the Klingons reported home, saying:

"... believe luminescent cloud to be enormous power field surrounding alien vessel ... size and description unknown..our sensor scans unable to penetrate. Imperial Klingon Cruiser Amar ... continuing to attack."

We don't know what happened previously to provoke them, but Klingons don't need much provocation to unleash their dogs of war, and if V'Ger pulled a stunt with the Klingons at all similar to what it did with Comm Station Epsilon IX, then they're perfectly justified sending whatever they have in to counter-attack.

This movie was made when the film makers still realized that a weapon with the specifications of a photon torpedo would do a lot more damage than knock the paint off a starship's hull. In the original series and The Motion Picture, a photon torpedo detonated with a force greater than nukes. Later in the film, a single photon torpedo smashes an asteroid to rubble as a demonstration.

It certainly doesn't matter if V'Ger is a diminutive spec compared to the cloud. It was a power field and a simple analysis of the lines of force would point back to the center. V'Ger conveniently gave them handy cross-hairs for targetting in a "bummer of a birthmark" move that, realistically, was probably unavoidable considering it's capabilities.

They didn't just fire three photon torpedoes and then run away, either (although it's easy to make that mistake from the way the scene is edited). They continued to attack, so the salvo we saw was just the opening round of a battle that the Klingons presumably intended to prosecute with torpedo barrages until they got close enough to cut into the target with beam weapons, or it surrendered or broke. What they didn't count on was watching their super-nukes vanish without effect. And the Captain's response was to order evasive maneuvering, not a retreat.

So let's summarize:

1. The Klingons weren't shooting at the cloud, they were shooting at the object they knew was at the center.
2. They weren't firing beam weapons, they used -- as Timo notes -- strategic weapons capable of causing massive damage even if they missed.
3. These were only the first shots of battle that the Klingons intended to continue as they closed range.

They made the mistake of being overly aggressive against an opponent who vastly outclassed them, but they certainly weren't trying to destroy a target that was 82 (or just 2) astronomical units in diameter.

[Mr Silver]

Consider, however, that it took a advanced communications and scanning station like Epsilon IX (and at close range too) to determine that there was something inside V'Ger and not just an external Energy Cloud ("I have a null reading at the centre of the Cloud, "Definatly something inside there, but all scans being reflected back")

The Klingons couldn't have possibly determined that there was something inside the cloud, we know that in those days Klingons stressed more importance on "Military" focus than Scientific and Exploration

The Enterprise couldn't penetrate the Cloud, they had to actually go inside to determine that it was more than Energy, heck Starfleet assumed it to be an Alien Ship that was generating the Energy Cloud until of course they realised that there was no crew, or life in the traditional sense, instead they found a sentient machine that somehow aquired the ability to project an Energy Cloud of 12th power energy

Back to the main point...

The Klingons should have known better, at that range they would have detected the power output from V'Ger and should have withdrawn, however we know Klingons aren't like that, they found something violating their territory and they responded the "Honourable Way", by engaging the intruder and opening fire, although it was a complete mismatch, to retreat would have been dishounarable

[Maurice]

madmatthias wrote:

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Consider, however, that it took a advanced communications and scanning station like Epsilon IX (and at close range too) to determine that there was something inside V'Ger and not just an external Energy Cloud ("I have a null reading at the centre of the Cloud, "Definatly something inside there, but all scans being reflected back")

The Klingons couldn't have possibly determined that there was something inside the cloud...

The Klingons suspected there was an object at the center of the cloud. Likewise, all Epsilon Nine could detect was a "null reading" from which they surmised there was "something inside there", essentially the same thing the Klingons did. The Enterprise didn't even attempt a scan, fearing it was scans that triggered the attacks on the Klingons and Epsilon Nine (it wasn't).

[Psion]

Madmatthias is right, the Klingons should have known better. Given Sulu's response, I'd have left a 12th power energy field traveling at superluminal velocities free to proceed on to the heart of the Federation. Let them deal with it. On the other hand, maybe this is just the way they prefer to do scientific research.

Methodology:

1. Shoot first.
2. Note subject's response to being shot.
3. Get angry if subject shoots back.

Curiously, this bears a resemblance to posting patterns of some folks here. Perhaps they're Klingon.

[Boxyno1]

I'm not too sure but didn't V'Ger fire that energy ball thing at the Klingon's first? If so then that may be what the Klingon's were firing at, although in said situation perhaps phasers would hve been more affective.

And I'm not convinced the Klingons were moving at warp speed, we see the three cruisers slowly moving towards the camera in the opening shot, with the stars in the background. I'm not sure how relevent this is but there was discussion earlier in this thread suggesting the Enterprise was moving at warp, and that maybe the Klingons were too?

[Timo]

Let's remember here that this awesome 12th power energy field did zip in tactical terms. It was never said to endanger the ship of our heroes, or the ships of the Klingons. It was never said to block weapons fire. It wasn't even directly established as the reason one couldn't get clear readings of V'Ger itself.

It seems the energy field was either the unusually large starship's means of moving around at warp seven (and propulsive warp fields have never been weaponized in Trek, suggesting they are fundamentally harmless despite being impressive examples of space-bending), or then some sort of a more or less harmless byproduct of some other V'Ger function, such as its sampling of the universe around it.

Klingons would known when to cut to the chase. Pretty lights wouldn't distract them from confronting the enemy; indefinite sensor readings wouldn't make them hesitate with deciding that the enemy sat in the exact middle of its cowardly cloud.

And I'm not convinced the Klingons were moving at warp speed, we see the three cruisers slowly moving towards the camera in the opening shot, with the stars in the background.

When the Enterprise hits warp seven after Spock's engine repairs, we see those exact same visuals: the ship moving slowly on the foreground, stars (rather than streaks) in the background. So we can't tell whether the Klingons were doing warp or not. FWIW, their engines are never shown glaring particularly brightly even when they are doing high warp (see e.g. "Flashback"), even if the star background effect in other movies and shows is less ambiguous on the issue of warp vs. impulse.

Timo Saloniemi

[Gorn Captain]

I don't know what they were thinking, but I love this thread. The math is really interesting. I'm not being sarcastic. Now I can go back and watch the movie again with potentially a renewed sense of awe as to the size of the thing.

[Boxyno1]

When the Enterprise hits warp seven after Spock's engine repairs, we see those exact same visuals: the ship moving slowly on the foreground, stars (rather than streaks) in the background. So we can't tell whether the Klingons were doing warp or not. FWIW, their engines are never shown glaring particularly brightly even when they are doing high warp (see e.g. "Flashback"), even if the star background effect in other movies and shows is less ambiguous on the issue of warp vs. impulse.

It seems quite odd because the streaking stars is Star Trek's way of saying, "this ship is travelling at warp". However, this was not the case in the original series and not in this movie. Another way of showing a ship is at warp is by showing the ship scream past the camera, the three Klingon cruisers are just strolling past, with even a close up of the bridge (or what I assume to be the bridge, the little tower on the end part of the "neck"). So I think that if the Klingon cruisers were travelling at impulse, then maybe so was the Enterprise.

This movie seems to have an idea of impulse being really quite fast, such as when the Enterprise flies through the solar system and past Jupiter, personally I think this looks a bit too fast for impulse, and this makes me think that perhaps the Enterprise is moving at impulse through V'Ger.

Is there any dialogue suggesting they are at warp or impulse when they are in V'Ger?

[darkshadow0001]

captrek wrote:

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Do you understand the magnitudes we’re discussing?

Using the DE’s 2 AU diameter, the size ratio between the V’ger cloud and the Klingon battle cruisers is about the same as the ratio between the planet and mini-cruisers about a centimeter in length. If the target is the size of an adult human, the attackers would be about the size of a proton. How could they possibly entertain thoughts of disabling or defeating that?

Well obviously the Klingon ship didn't back away. They kept going, so that got me thinking in these terms. And they did fire some shots at the thing... so...

Yes, I do understand the magnitudes you're discussing.

[Psion]

Boxyno1 wrote:

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This movie seems to have an idea of impulse being really quite fast, such as when the Enterprise flies through the solar system and past Jupiter, personally I think this looks a bit too fast for impulse, and this makes me think that perhaps the Enterprise is moving at impulse through V'Ger.

The formula for warp speed mentioned above, suggests that when Kirk orders impulse engines "ahead ... warp point five", the ship should be traveling at 12.5% the speed of light. Covering 37,375 kilometers every second, I think the Enterprise looked fine moving through the Jovian system. If I have time tonight, I'll try to recreate the scene with Celestia and confirm or refute the shot.

Is there any dialogue suggesting they are at warp or impulse when they are in V'Ger?

I don't believe so, although the engines and navigational deflectors do provide non-dialog clues.