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Old August 1 2010, 03:02 PM   #16
captcalhoun
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

FWIW, Star Trek Star Charts gives some warp capable dates:

Deltans - 2223
Denebians - 2259
Betazoids - 'Antiquity'
Trill - likewise
Bajorans - 2328, interstallar flight, 1571
Talosians - ~500,000 years ago
Cardassians - 1925
Tamarians - 2050
Vulcans - 320AD
Andorians - 1154
Ardanans - 2259
Coridan - 2093
Menk - 2236
Klingons - 930AD
Son'a - 'Antiquity'

The Ferengi are also erroneously listed as 'Antiquity', whilst we might also assume the Deltans date is wrong since Travis mentioned meeting Deltans when he was younger in ENT S4's Bound.
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Old August 1 2010, 08:17 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

The Deltans might have been visited even if they didn't have warp drive themselves. And we really don't know when the Ferengi got their warp drive - 8,572 BC is as good a guess as any. But Quark's rant in "Little Green Men" would not only be in error in that case, it would be completely off base; it only makes sense if the Ferengi warp came slightly after at least one of those cases Quark mentions - human, Klingon or Vulcan warp. And it would only be literally true if it came after all three, but we can excuse Quark for fumbling on one or two.

As for Bajoran warp, we really have no idea, but 2328 sounds really late for such a "mature" society. Even the dating of their fancy lightsails is unknown, because Sisko merely replicates a specific model that comes from 800 years before the episode; lightsails in general might have existed long before, and Bajorans could in theory even have had warp long before they developed lightsails. In contrast, the Talosians were old but not particularly mature, and one wonders if they ever developed any sort of interstellar travel. Doesn't really look like it IMHO.

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Old August 1 2010, 08:49 PM   #18
Myasishchev
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Timo wrote: View Post
We further know that Klingon history includes references to starflight: Kahless himself said Klingons would meet him again on a distant star, a millennium before ENT.
So did Dante Alighieri and Joseph Smith.

In contrast, the Talosians were old but not particularly mature, and one wonders if they ever developed any sort of interstellar travel. Doesn't really look like it IMHO.
Concur. If they did, we'd all be Talosian slaves. Of course, maybe we are. Their mind control machines are pretty good.
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Old August 1 2010, 09:27 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Machines? So all their talk about not being particularly good with machines was just a smokescreen?

There have been many interpretations of Klingon history, and many are possible with the scant canon evidence, but it would be a bit odd of the Klingons to attribute the mythical forging of the first sword to some guy who had a space shuttle in his garage (even if it was owned by a Hur'Q and Kahless was just his chauffeur - until the day he took out the tire iron and rearranged the working relationship, of course). Many of the myths about Kahless are medieval in their technological context, with swords and walls as centerpieces. Even if this is just an alien way of living and the swords and walls coexisted with disruptor rifles and anti-spacecraft batteries, it's remarkable that in turn none of the myths have an explicit space age technological context...

One would thus think it likely that Kahless lived either before Klingons were spacefaring or starfaring, or then in an era when Klingons had been forced down from the stars and subjugated so completely that they had to resort to using swords and walls again.

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Old August 1 2010, 11:48 PM   #20
Myasishchev
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Timo wrote:
Machines? So all their talk about not being particularly good with machines was just a smokescreen?
Basing that solely on the line where the Talosians insist that humans could be taught. Humans can't be taught to grow giant gross 50s sci-fi brains. Well, maybe they could via genetic tampering, but I think machines make as much or more sense.*

I always interpreted the Talosians as having built a large illusion-casting industrial complex that was largely automated, but over the decades, centuries, and so forth they became too endumbened and lazified by their Total Sense Internet to ever build anything else more complicated than an elevator or pane of glass.

It's actually little surprising that The Cage was never broadcast back in the day, given its message, and it's even more surprising that it remains one of the more relevant Trek episodes even ~fifty years later.

*On the other hand, a fair amount of early Trek is under the goofy impression that humans have latent telepathic abilities that need only a crazy radiation bolt or the love of a good plasma-cloud man to be jumpstarted. This was pretty much retconned out, of course.
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Old August 4 2010, 01:04 AM   #21
Gaith
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

It's really the central dilemma of the Trek canon, isn't it - that humans managed to assemble and dominate the Federation despite being (by all appearances and reasonable assumptions) relative newcomers to galactic society, or that all these other species just happened to discover warp tech shortly after we did. Doesn't make tons of sense either way; one just has to roll with it, imo.
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Old June 3 2013, 09:22 PM   #22
Cayomagnetking
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

So, perhaps when Earth got warp technology, it set off an arms race situation and forced the development of faster and faster engines. Are there no episodes that dealt with the events leading from Earth finding how to warp?
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Old June 3 2013, 09:56 PM   #23
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

I've always wondered why everyone assumes that FTL capable = Warp Drive. Surely there are other methods of FTL that may have been in use that were superseded by the more effective Warp Engine?
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Old June 3 2013, 10:50 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

On the other hand, different species do "warp" in rather different ways. It wouldn't surprise me at all if warp were just a catchall term for all the possible methods of FTL travel - and methods that visibly differ from the things called warp are impossible.

Say, "wormhole" is another vague concept that has been associated with at least three different VFX, each of which also differed conceptually on how a spacecraft would pass through (ST:TMP, "The Price", DS9). And our heroes agree that wormhole is not a valid FTL travel method, until the Celestial Temple comes along. Quite possibly, it's all "warp" and "wormholes" and nothing else can exist without being absorbed into one category or the other.

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Old June 3 2013, 11:19 PM   #25
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Crewman47 wrote: View Post
The one thing about Warp drive for other races is that very few of them have speeds over warp 5 by the 2150's, Vulcans have warp 7 but all the major races seem to have progressed on warp speeds at the same time once the Federation was formed and are now at warp 8 and 9+ by the 2380's.

This sort of implies that, like Earth, the other races are fairly new to warp drive, maybe within a few hundred years, or that once they developed warp drive whenever they did they just stuck with the first thing they had and kept with it with very little progress.

Just remember that the warp scale was recalibrated at somepoint after TOS but prior to TNG. So warp 8 in TNG is more akin to Warp 13 on the old scale.
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Old June 3 2013, 11:31 PM   #26
The Wormhole
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Cayomagnetking wrote: View Post
So, perhaps when Earth got warp technology, it set off an arms race situation and forced the development of faster and faster engines.
Why would it set of an "Arms race situation?" Earth was one of the last of the prominent Alpha Quadrant powers had warp capability for several centuries before Earth, and within 90 years Earth could only do warp 5 while everyone else could do warp 7.

Are there no episodes that dealt with the events leading from Earth finding how to warp?
The movie First Contact.
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Old June 8 2013, 07:43 PM   #27
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Some others

Vedala
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Old June 9 2013, 12:42 AM   #28
Elvira
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

[QUOTE=Timo;4286334]
Timo wrote: View Post
Even the dating of their fancy lightsails is unknown, because Sisko merely replicates a specific model that comes from 800 years before the episode
We have giant nuclear powered vessels, and little sail boats are still being made.

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Cayomagnetking wrote: View Post
Are there no episodes that dealt with the events leading from Earth finding how to warp?
The movie First Contact.
I believe he meant after First Contact. Troi rattled off some vague generalities, but no details.

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Old June 9 2013, 01:19 AM   #29
Kevman7987
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

It makes sense that the writers are vague in when the other species invented their FTL technologies. They wouldn't want to handcuff themselves to specific dates.

DS9forever wrote: View Post
Dialogue in "Little Green Men" seemed to suggest the Vulcans didn't have warp drive in 1947.
Quark was probably wrong in his statements.

Cayomagnetking wrote: View Post
Are there no episodes that dealt with the events leading from Earth finding how to warp?
From the first successful test in First Contact to Earth having a small group of colonies when the NX-01 launched?

No. Nothing in Star Trek at the highest continuity level (e.g. official, filmed Trek) discusses the FC to Broken Bow era.

I don't consider novel/comic Trek canon so I will not mention it.

I wish that Star Trek came up with an official, full canon way of giving fans the complete future history of Star trek of those lost eras. We all want to have a full account of the Eugencs War; a full account of World War III; a full account of the Earth/Romulan War; and finally a full account of the early days of the Federation, of the founding members joining their fleets, militaries, soldiers, and crews into the military/exploratory Federation Starfleet.

I know there are probably books/comics covering those eras. But again, I don't consider them canon.

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Old June 9 2013, 01:41 AM   #30
Geoff Peterson
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Re: When Did different species achieve space travel/ warp?

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post

I wish that Star Trek came up with an official, full canon way of giving fans the complete future history of Star trek of those lost eras. We all want to have a full account of the Eugencs War; a full account of World War III; a full account of the Earth/Romulan War; and finally a full account of the early days of the Federation, of the founding members joining their fleets, militaries, soldiers, and crews into the military/exploratory Federation Starfleet.

.
I wouldn't want to hamstring the writers like that. Even TOS made it up as it went along.
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