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Old July 25 2010, 02:28 AM   #256
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Well, yeah, but Saito was in that state long enough to become a super old man, even though only 10 hours in the real world had passed. You'd have to be stuck there a LONG time before your body would start to atrophy.

I think the reason Cobb and Mal were okay (aside from Mal's obvious suicidal desires) when they woke up was because they were trapped in Limbo together and were keeping each other's minds working. Unlike Saito, who was just an old man, full of regret, waiting to die alone. He was lucky that he woke up with his brain still intact.
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Old July 25 2010, 02:54 AM   #257
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Well, yeah, but Saito was in that state long enough to become a super old man, even though only 10 hours in the real world had passed. You'd have to be stuck there a LONG time before your body would start to atrophy.

I think the reason Cobb and Mal were okay (aside from Mal's obvious suicidal desires) when they woke up was because they were trapped in Limbo together and were keeping each other's minds working. Unlike Saito, who was just an old man, full of regret, waiting to die alone. He was lucky that he woke up with his brain still intact.
See I'm not so sure it's a matter of the "time spent" in Limbo so much as the time spent in the real world and what physically happens to your body. People in comas who wake up after even a couple of years still have a lot of recovery to go through to even begin to be functional.

Mal and Leo were asleep for a "normal" ammount of time which, yeah, translated to decades of time in Limbo but in the real world their bodies didn't atrophy. The problem comes, as their chemist said, is that they could (in the real world) be stuck in Limbo for any ammount of time due to the circumstances of their situation. (The drugs, the immune system.)

So it was a matter if Watanabe was "in a coma" in the real world for even one year that'd translate to twenty thousand years in limbo (going by the "factors of twelve" thing.) So yeah that'd problaby make him loopy in the head a bit and mess him up when he awoke. The 16-hour flight only translates to about 38 years a normal life time which is how when he awoke he was -mostly- OK and same for Leo and Mal (aside from Mal's "inception") they had only lived a normal life span.

So, -to me- the time spent in Limbo wasn't as big of a problem as how long their bodies were in a coma because the longer their bodies were in a coma the longer they'd be in "Limbo." Sleep a normal ammount of time and you'd, more or less, wake up ok. Disoriented, but okay. But if your body goes into a coma, either by itself or from the situation they were in, you'd sepnd an eternity in Limbo which would severely fuck you up in the head.

So when Wantabe woke up he'd only been in Limbo for close to 40 years and, like shaking off a dream when you wakeup, it was probably fairly easy to shrug it off as a dream, come out of it, and go on as normal.

But if the situation had put him in a coma for a year, 10 years, whatever he'd go mad in "Limbo" and would wake up in that madness having lived an eternal length of time in a surreal nightmare. Everything he'd know would, from his prespective, have been eons ago and probably harder to shrug off.
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Old July 25 2010, 03:20 AM   #258
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I think the reason Cobb and Mal were okay (aside from Mal's obvious suicidal desires) when they woke up was because they were trapped in Limbo together and were keeping each other's minds working. Unlike Saito, who was just an old man, full of regret, waiting to die alone. He was lucky that he woke up with his brain still intact.
That just got me wondering.... how do you get to limbo again?

For the climax, it was going 4 (or was it 5? I'm losing count) levels deep, right? But in order to go that deep, one person has to remain behind so that you enter "their" dream. As I understand it.

So how did Cobb and wifey go that deep with just the two of them?
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Old July 25 2010, 03:39 AM   #259
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

They had to keep someone awake in the upper levels to provide the "kick" to get them back up a level. Someone being awake in the upper levels isn't needed to get to the deeper levels, just a way to get down to them.

Without the drugs they used on the plane to but themselves in such a deep sleep they'd wake up if shot/died/whatever, that's why they used the drugs. They had to leave someone behind in each level to provide the "kick" (which the drug was designed to still allow). Mal and Leo simply put themselves in a deeper and deeper dream state and provided their own kicks to go back up the levels into the real world.
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Old July 25 2010, 04:22 AM   #260
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Harvey, the top is spinning so fast that it would have taken considerably more than two seconds to fall, additional time that would have added zero to the point. When the top starts to wobble, it's falling. That's the way spinning object (that aren't in free fall, anyhow) act. The movie makes a point of justifying the virtual reality approach by announcing dreams always seem real. And the only exceptions, the tilting and the free fall and so on, are explicitly justified by the rather remarkable sedative that does not affect the inner ear. Best not to look under the hood to see how that works.

It's kind of baffling that people can imagine there's any ambiguity about whether the top falls. We see it falling!
By the rules so extensively established it means the scene is real. Moments earlier, DiCaprio rejected dream/movie Cotillard as inadequate. And the contrast to the fake catharsis Murphy experiences adds ambiguity, by presenting two answers as to whether dreams/movies are as good as or better than reality.

The business with the gun when DiCaprio finds the aged Watanabe is ambiguous, though. By the rules established, death in a dream when the dreamer can't waken is how you end up in limbo. The train suicide was to fool Cotillard into thinking she had escaped from limbo. "Suicide" or "death" in limbo makes no sense as the way out. The hint that DiCaprio and Watanabe kill themselves raises the question of whether they have actually wakened in the next sequence. That question is answered by the top falling.

I am curious as to what people think happened to Watanabe if the final sequence is a dream while somehow the rest is just as depicted. DiCaprio's off hand claim that it is mind destroying ignores his own experience. Cotillard's subsequent mental illness was caused by DiCaprio's inception. It is just a case of inflating the peril to raise the stakes. Kind of corny but Nolan is not a very good writer.

The assumption that Nolan intended for us to see the top falling, but to wonder what happened when we didn't see it fallen is the same as assuming that neither Nolan nor anyone else associated with the movie knows how tops behave. This seems remarkably ungenerous to me.
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Old July 25 2010, 04:25 AM   #261
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

stj wrote: View Post
The hint that DiCaprio and Watanabe kill themselves raises the question of whether they have actually wakened in the next sequence. That question is answered by the top falling.
I actually never thought that they had killed themselves. That wouldn't make sense as a way out of Limbo. Perhaps the gun was Saito's totem, which made him realize that the last 50+ years had been a dream the whole time.

They woke up on the plane because the timer ran out and the sedative wore off.
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Old July 25 2010, 04:27 AM   #262
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

The other issue with the kids looking the same ... is that they didn't. Two sets of actors played the kids at different ages.
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Old July 25 2010, 04:32 AM   #263
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

^^^RoJoHen, I never thought so either, though I wondered what the point was when I saw it. But looking through posts in the thread, it is quite clear that many did think DiCaprio and Watanabe escaped limbo by killing themselves. It's even in the graphic!

The confusion comes, I think, from seeing Page and Murphy escape by apparent murder/suicide, without realizing that when they "died" they went up to the next level at the same time there was a kick there to send them up yet again. The team abandoned the dream bodies of DiCaprio and Watanabe in the van on the first dream level because it was too late for the kick to bring them up to that level.

Murphy and the Berenger projection were left to be wakened, while the team woke up to reality as planned. (I've forgotten how, the flight attendant who was in on the scheme?)

jadcox@mindspring.com, this is interesting if true. Since the key scenes of the children didn't show their faces, which was a major plot point, I never noticed that them to be the same in the fugitive glimpses we got. I think the kids were also seen along the shore, but I can't remember the age. When people said they were the same, I assumed it was just something I missed. I didn't enjoy the movie enough to want to rewatch it very soon, certainly not at theater prices, though, so perhaps others could confirm or deny?
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Old July 25 2010, 04:35 AM   #264
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

stj wrote: View Post
^^^I never thought so either, though I wondered what the point was when I saw it. But looking through posts in the thread, it is quite clear that many did think DiCaprio and Watanabe escaped limbo by killing themselves. It's even in the graphic! The confusion comes I think from seeing Page and Murphy escape by apparent murder/suicide, without realizing that when they "died" they went up to the next level at the same time there was a kick there to send them up yet again. The team abandoned the dream bodies of DiCaprio and Watanabe in the van on the first dream level because it was too late for the kick to bring them up to that level. Murphy and the Berenger projection were left to be wakened, while the team woke up as planned (I've forgotten how, the flight attendant who was in on the scheme?)
There was definitely a lot going on during those last few minutes when everybody was waking up. I can see how people would get confused if they weren't paying close enough attention (and just to that scene, but to the rules presented earlier in the film).

I don't think they showed the flight attendant waking them up, but it's implied. Didn't Saito say that they bought out the entire plane? Everybody onboard would be a part of the plan.
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Old July 25 2010, 04:40 AM   #265
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Sorry to butt in mid-discussion, I didn't realise there was a thread and I've had no-one to talk to about it. I saw this film last week and have nothing but praise for it. It's the most original and exciting film I've seen in a long time and I'm admittedly a pretty harsh critic.

Everything about it was pretty spot-on for me. The ending, you kinda saw it coming, but it was still surprising when they pulled it off. It's a film with a massive potential, maybe not for a sequel, but I personally wouldn't mind seeing a spinoff TV series with different characters, exploring more of this underworld and all the routes it can take.

My top film of 2010
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Old July 25 2010, 05:26 AM   #266
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

IF true??? Oh, stj of little faith:

From: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1375666/fullcredits#cast


Claire Geare ... Phillipa (3 years)
Magnus Nolan ... James (20 months)

Taylor Geare ... Phillipa (5 years)
Johnathan Geare ... James (3 years)
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Old July 25 2010, 05:35 AM   #267
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stj wrote: View Post
Harvey, the top is spinning so fast that it would have taken considerably more than two seconds to fall, additional time that would have added zero to the point. When the top starts to wobble, it's falling. That's the way spinning object (that aren't in free fall, anyhow) act. The movie makes a point of justifying the virtual reality approach by announcing dreams always seem real. And the only exceptions, the tilting and the free fall and so on, are explicitly justified by the rather remarkable sedative that does not affect the inner ear. Best not to look under the hood to see how that works.
I (truly) don't mean this to sound dickish, and I'm afraid it will since I am reading this late at night. But I'm not sure I see your point. In a film where we've just seen a dream world with cities folding in on themselves and building interiors that don't match the exteriors, how is a top suddenly righting itself and continuing to spin impossible, or even unlikely?

I think a better question might be ... why would someone else's totem work for Cobb? Especially his wife's?

I read that scene as Nolan's own Inception, if you will. He's planting the germ of an idea that what we see may not be real. It's a fun conceit, and well worth an hour or two of discussion over a meal after the show.

Personally, and here's where you and I differ on more than trivial issues, if I thought that ending was earned, with all of it's emotional core and subtle irony (like Cillian Murphy's character finding peace from a "fake" catharsis).

I hope the DVD of this film will be as well presented as Memento. If so, I can't wait.
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Old July 25 2010, 05:36 AM   #268
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Magnus Nolan... Nolan's kid? Interesting.

I guess that supports the claim that Cobb wasn't dreaming. Even though to me the kids looked the same as in Cobb's dream state. Maybe that was intentional, to blur the lines of what was reality and what was memory.
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Old July 25 2010, 05:38 AM   #269
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
Magnus Nolan... Nolan's kid? Interesting.

I guess that supports the claim that Cobb wasn't dreaming. Even though to me the kids looked the same as in Cobb's dream state. Maybe that was intentional, to blur the lines of what was reality and what was memory.
Well, did we ever see their faces in the dream? All I remember seeing was the back of them in the yard. It's certainly possible they could look the same from behind.
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Old July 25 2010, 05:39 AM   #270
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
Magnus Nolan... Nolan's kid? Interesting.

I guess that supports the claim that Cobb wasn't dreaming. Even though to me the kids looked the same as in Cobb's dream state. Maybe that was intentional, to blur the lines of what was reality and what was memory.
Well, did we ever see their faces in the dream? All I remember seeing was the back of them in the yard. It's certainly possible they could look the same from behind.
We never saw their faces until the very end. It's possible the kid actors for the majority of the movie were different from the actors we saw at the end.
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