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Old January 4 2012, 10:05 PM   #1096
Spookman Spiff
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

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Someone should go a different route and start a Robin movie series. Do a serious take on his origin story and have Batman around, but make Robin the main character. You could eventually lead into a Nightwing movie where Batman is completely absent.
No one would care about Robin as the lead charcter if Batman was in the same movie.
It would depend on how the movie is framed and presented to the audience. If people know going in that Batman is a supporting character, it could work.

I don't know how well it would do at the box office, but I would see it.
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Old January 4 2012, 10:08 PM   #1097
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

Spaceman Spiff wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Someone should go a different route and start a Robin movie series. Do a serious take on his origin story and have Batman around, but make Robin the main character. You could eventually lead into a Nightwing movie where Batman is completely absent.
No one would care about Robin as the lead charcter if Batman was in the same movie.
It would depend on how the movie is framed and presented to the audience. If people know going in that Batman is a supporting character, it could work.

I don't know how well it would do at the box office, but I would see it.
Exactly. Honestly, I've always liked the Dick Grayson character, and I like his origin story. As long as you make it obvious that the movie is about Robin (call it "Robin," for example) and make him the focus of the previews, nobody should be disappointed by Batman as a supporting character.

I think it could be awesome, actually, if done right.
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Old January 4 2012, 10:27 PM   #1098
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

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The James Bond films have been quite successful without origin stories and with "soft reboots" every ten years or so. These three characters are at least as established as Bond at this point. There's no reason to keep retelling the same story, other than intellectual laziness and creative bankruptcy.
I don't think it's laziness, I think it's more that as these different directors and people come in they want to put their own stamp on the character, and to most people the best way to do that is by telling their own version of the origin story. I think it's also their way of letting people know that this new series will be completely unrelated to past stories. They might be afraid that if they just jump into a story with the character already established, people will jassume it's just a continuation of the previous series.

But...why?

Let's take Batman as an example. Neither the Adam West TV show nor the Dini/Timm one started out with an origin. Yet, both were very successful and both put forth a unique and popular version of the character.

And, in the case of West, they NEVER showed the origin. There was only a reference made by Bruce, in the first couple minutes of the pilot, that he started the Wayne foundation because his parents had been murdered by a mugger. That was all the audience needed to figure things out.

And, of course, no one thought Dini/Timm was a continuation of West...or a direct continuation of Burton's film for that matter.

So...if those guys can do it, why assume that a film director can't?

As for Spiderman, so far, other than a need to write out Mary Jane and recast the leads, there's nothing about this current Spidey film that I've seen that couldn't have done as sequel or a soft reboot...except for the origin itself.

Gwen was in III. Connors was in at least two of Raimi's films. But for the origin (again), there's nothing I see here that couldn't have been done in Spidey IV even with a new director and a new tone.

If a director could do "Live and Let Die" after "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" (and, yes, I'm ignoring "Diamonds") or "The Living Daylights after "View to a Kill," changing the cast and tone of the Bond flicks (and casting a younger Bond in the case of Dalton) without a reboot there's no reason Webb couldn't have done the same thing with this film.
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Old January 4 2012, 10:33 PM   #1099
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

^ Different times, I suppose. When Connery was replaced by Lazenby and then Moore, the Bond movies were only shown every few years on tv and there was no tv or DVD. Even when Dalton was cast, there was no DVD and videos were rented, rarely purchased. As such, people didn't watch and re-watch movies and note continuity errors, changed premises, etc, etc the way we do now.

Can you imagine the outcry there'd be today if a villain was played by three different actors in three totally different ways, in three successive movies, as Blofeld was in YOLT, OHMSS and DAF?

I agree with your basic point, but I suppose now people are almost too cinematically-literate or aware to be as casual
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Old January 4 2012, 10:37 PM   #1100
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

Can you imagine the outcry there'd be today if a villain was played by three different actors in three totally different ways, in three successive movies, as Blofeld was in YOLT, OHMSS and DAF?
They recast Batman twice during the last film series (1989-1997) without any outcry. Not to mention Harvey Dent going from Billy Dee Williams to Tommy Lee Jones.
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Old January 4 2012, 10:42 PM   #1101
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

i'd like someone to do a nice long Batman series utilising several villains (some more than once) and the 3 major sidekicks of Robin, Nightwing and Batgirl and have 2 Robins at least. and if the actors get too old or want to leave, let them, recast and keep the series going. fuck trilogies, go for a hexilogy or a decilogy.

although why we're talking Batman in the SPIDER-MAN thread, i don't know.
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Old January 4 2012, 10:44 PM   #1102
the G-man
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
i'd like someone to do a nice long Batman series utilising several villains (some more than once) and the 3 major sidekicks of Robin, Nightwing and Batgirl and have 2 Robins at least. and if the actors get too old or want to leave, let them, recast and keep the series going. fuck trilogies, go for a hexilogy or a decilogy.
More or less, yes.

although why we're talking Batman in the SPIDER-MAN thread, i don't know.
Similar principles at play I guess.
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Old January 4 2012, 10:48 PM   #1103
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i'd like a long series of Spider-Man flicks too, use Gobby, use Mysterio, Ock, Lizard, Kraven, Sandman and then do Sinister Six. and do Venom properly and do Carnage and Vulture. hell, even a Clone Saga movie could be good if done well and set-up properly...

- actually, i'd like an adap of Ultimate Clone Saga. of course, that's impossible with X-Men and F4 at Fox and no using the Avengers/Fury.
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Old January 5 2012, 04:54 AM   #1104
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

^I've started to wonder over the last few years if perhaps TV wouldn't be a better place to do more true to comics live action adaptations. It would give more opportunities to work in more of the characters over time, and it would make it alot easier to adapt some of the longer more in dept arcs. I know a few year ago it might have been harder to do some of the more complex powers, but I think Heroes proved it's possibly to do comic book superhero powers on a TV budget.
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Old January 5 2012, 05:36 AM   #1105
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^I know it isn't everybody's favorite, but Smallville did a pretty good job with recurring characters, both hero and villain, in the latter half of the series.

If a TV show wanted to focus on one particular story arc during a season, it might be cool if they did ten episode mini-seasons. But I don't know how that would be sustainable in the long run.
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Old January 5 2012, 01:27 PM   #1106
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

the G-man wrote: View Post
Can you imagine the outcry there'd be today if a villain was played by three different actors in three totally different ways, in three successive movies, as Blofeld was in YOLT, OHMSS and DAF?
They recast Batman twice during the last film series (1989-1997) without any outcry. Not to mention Harvey Dent going from Billy Dee Williams to Tommy Lee Jones.
That did occur to me, as did the Hulk situation; the Ed Norton replacing Eric Bana was perhaps different, as it was an outright reboot, but I'm not sure how anyone is to believe that Mark Ruffalo is the same character as Ed Norton (even his clothing and mannerisms seem different in the clips from Avengers).

I don't know if there was no outcry about Batman - there was a fair bit of comment about how ridiculous the recasting thing was, but these were all before there was quite as much internet discussion as there now is. And there was a fair bit of talk about TLJ replacing BDW, letters in genre mags etc. However, as the character hardly appeared in Batman and didn't appear in Returns, the intervening six year gap probably calmed some heads too. And given that BF saw a new Batman, the fact of a supporting character was very much secondary.

I'd say also that if Batman Forever was made today as the sequel to Batman Returns (2009), it would definitely be marketed as a reboot.

One other thing that also occurred to me was your point about the same directors directing Connery, Moore and Dalton, without feeling the need to 'stamp their own direction' etc on the character and series. Bond directors have always been hired hands to a certain extent, with the production company, Eon, being the ones who call the shots. Which was why Spielberg was knocked back when he wanted to direct a Bond movie in the 1970s.

And, moreover, the likes of John Glen etc seemed to have no problem being journeyman directors, hands for hire. Whereas every clown with a camera in Hollywood now fancies him or herself an auteur and an artist, with a vision!

(I'm going to an awful lot of effort to argue with you, given that I basically agree with your point and have long said that superhero 'reboots' should just go the 007 route!)
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Old January 5 2012, 02:19 PM   #1107
the G-man
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

(I'm going to an awful lot of effort to argue with you, given that I basically agree with your point and have long said that superhero 'reboots' should just go the 007 route!)


With that in mind, I think of this as more of a friendly discussion than a serious debate.

I don't know if there was no outcry about Batman - there was a fair bit of comment about how ridiculous the recasting thing was, but these were all before there was quite as much internet discussion as there now is.
Even without internet discussion you could get a sense of how people, both in and out of fandom, felt about things through the press (fan and otherwise). I don't recall much of anything. And certainly nothing compared to the initial fan outcry when Keaton was cast in the first place.

I'd say also that if Batman Forever was made today as the sequel to Batman Returns (2009), it would definitely be marketed as a reboot.
I don't know about that. Besides having the same Alfred and Gordon, there was a scene in BF where they flashed back to Two Face's origin and Kilmer was wearing the Keaton costume. That would all seem to signal "sequel," not "reboot."

One other thing that also occurred to me was your point about the same directors directing Connery, Moore and Dalton, without feeling the need to 'stamp their own direction' etc on the character and series. Bond directors have always been hired hands to a certain extent, with the production company, Eon, being the ones who call the shots....
Understood. However, even with that reality, different Bond films had different styles and directions. "Live and Let Die," with its nods to "blacksploitation" and the comedy relief redneck sheriff (along with Moore's lighter tone), was very different from the Connery films or Lazenby movie. And "The Living Daylights" was very, very, different from Moore's "Moonraker" and "View to a Kill."

And, moreover, the likes of John Glen etc seemed to have no problem being journeyman directors, hands for hire. Whereas every clown with a camera in Hollywood now fancies him or herself an auteur and an artist, with a vision!
Fair enough. But, again, that doesn't mean the studio has to let them do another "origin" tale." And, to go to yet another film series, Alfonso Cuaron--an actual auteur--was able to make a "Harry Potter" film that reflected his vision and differentiated itself from the Chris Columbus films without starting the series all over.

Again (not directed at you per se, just to get back to the subject), there's nothing in the Spiderman film I've seen so far that couldn't have been accomplished Bond even Potter style.
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Old January 5 2012, 02:23 PM   #1108
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

JD wrote: View Post
^I've started to wonder over the last few years if perhaps TV wouldn't be a better place to do more true to comics live action adaptations...
I think it depends on the characters. Nolan aside, I think a non-powered character like Batman could easily carry another--faithful--TV series if the studio wanted to go that route.

But the further you get away from reality based heroes the more the budget would get in the way and you'd end up with something that was either cheap looking or not very faithful or both.
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Old January 5 2012, 03:48 PM   #1109
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
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If one does a Robin solo film...
That was simultaneously one of the silliest and most awesome things I've ever seen.

Considerably more silly than awesome.
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Old January 5 2012, 03:54 PM   #1110
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Re: Spider-Man movie (casting, rumors, pix till release)

That guy playing Superman in the "Grayson" film is really good casting. He looks like an Alex Ross painting come to life.
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