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Old Yesterday, 11:20 PM   #1
trekie015
Ensign
 
3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

For some time now, I've been fooling around with specularity and such to get the hull to look like it's made out of metal. Does anyone have any advice?
Thank you.


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Old Today, 12:15 AM   #2
wildstar
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

The general rule for metel is low diffuse, high spec and reflectivity, don't forget fresnel. Are you rendering in VRay for Max?
From the image there, I'd say tighten the gloss so the spec there isn't so spread out.
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Old Today, 12:28 AM   #3
trekie015
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Thank you, I really appreciate your reply. I'm using mental ray. How do I apply the fresnel? Also, the bump map seems too pronounced in that area, how can that be adjusted?
I've made some adjustments, and it is looking better, though some noise has crept up. Is the only solution to raise the image precision slider for the render?


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Old Today, 12:37 AM   #4
MGagen
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

The key to metallic effects in 3D is to give the surface something to reflect. A black background where the lights are only of the type that don't generate larger reflections will not give the the look you're going for.

Try large virtual light boxes, or glow panels, or a surrounding environment map set to reflect, only.
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Old Today, 01:01 AM   #5
Madkoifish
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

If your using mental ray I would abandon all the default scanline materials as they do not respond consistently in Mental Ray. Begin looking at Arch Design Materials.

Metal depending on the effect you want requires some setting more than just spec (fake surfacing) and gloss. You need to look into anisotropy and as mentioned environmental reflections.

Bump maps are a real pain, you need resolution and sometimes need to foll with mix materials or masks etc to create more gradient in the settings. I would really recommend you use those bump maps in say the spec slot or anisotropy rotation etc. Bump maps really re only good on surface features like a groove or gizmo on the hull. Paneling is best done with what I mentioned above or used as displacement maps.

Youll have to wait for me to load up some scenes and screen grap stuff but I can post some of my set ups for arch design. I dunno what sort of surface you are aiming for though. I see a TNG era ship and those more often than not are not very metallic at all. Though if aiming for say a ENT style hull some of the materials I will post should help.

For environment I suggest using the tut I have linked below that uses the chrome ball shaders. I think there are others out there based on this method as my tut is aimed at placement of an object into a scene. Generally I use a dark gradient for the images for space or WIP renders. This method will also allow you to insert a backdrop separately from the world map.

https://madkoifish.wordpress.com/201...-photo-in-app/



Forgot to add in standard materials gloss has less to do with the finish than anything. Stick with the default settings in the standard material and work with spec, spec maps aniso aniso rotation maps for those as well. Then fool with blend materials to fine tune your maps IE mix with black or white to lighten or darken features in the texture vs editing it in PS. This will also give you the option to blend other maps or increase or decrease the strength of the texture via another texture. Composite is another shader you can use as well.

OH also keep in mind reflections are not a consistent sharpness so with standard materials you have to fake it. So make sure to add a fall off distance etc to the reflection. Arch Design will do this for you though.

Last edited by Madkoifish; Today at 01:13 AM.
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Old Today, 01:22 AM   #6
trekie015
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Thank you. That's a lot of information. And you're right, TNG era ships didn't have that much of a metallic feel, but I didn't want it looking like plastic. And I'm not sure what would be involved in transferring all of the materials. As it stands, this is how it looks right now.
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Old Today, 01:30 AM   #7
Madkoifish
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Metal hull material



Rendered example:


KIM the above material contains a lot more than just the surfacing. For a pure metal you wont need those colour fall offs or really any of the textures. They just add the panel effect.

Old materials for the Onimaru.


Sorry no raw sample just a processed one

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Old Today, 01:43 AM   #8
Madkoifish
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Ok yeah if you want to stick with standard aim more for a paint finish a pearl with a matte finish and go with lots of blurred reflection. The gloss or shininess is what cause that plastic look.
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Old Today, 02:25 AM   #9
trekie015
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Okay, so this is what my main material looks like now, I did a test render.


Last edited by trekie015; Today at 05:02 AM.
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Old Today, 05:02 AM   #10
Madkoifish
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

MM What do you have for lighting? It looks really diffuse. Stick a sun MR Omni in there as main light at setting 1 A second one at oh 0.5 or less with a dirty dimish colour say gray blue. Then a skylight at 0.02 this will provide ambient fill. (avoids those ink blacks) You also might want to consider increasing the bounce setting in final gather.

Some random settings I use for things.



These latter ones are links only as they are large PNG files
https://madkoifish.files.wordpress.c...-rendering.png
https://madkoifish.files.wordpress.c...p-lighting.png
Some are dated but should steer you to develop your own rigging.


Either way it is looking ok just a bit dark which could just be the lighting.
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Old Today, 05:33 AM   #11
trekie015
Ensign
 
Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

I thought I also had a fill, but I was mistaken, I have a free directional light as the key. and skylight at .67 I'll light up this scene properly then. I really do appreciate your help.
Edit:
My render setup tab says "Global Illumination," whereas yours says indirect. Are they the same in this case?

Last edited by trekie015; Today at 05:44 AM.
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Old Today, 06:40 AM   #12
Madkoifish
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

MM It is likely a change in versions of mental ray. If the options are similar or the same it shouldn't matter. I know 2010 to 2013 the lum shaders are now called glow.
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Old Today, 07:07 AM   #13
trekie015
Ensign
 
Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Alright, so forty minutes of rendering later, this is what I've got. Is that much time normal for just this one rather uncomplicated image?

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Old Today, 08:38 AM   #14
Madkoifish
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Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

MM 40min sounds a bit long, it depends on your system power and what not. Im running a uh 4770k slightly overclocked with 16gigs ram. To speed things up you could drop the samples per pixel or mess with the FG settings. Make sure those inital FG points are not too high. Decreasing the Rays per FG might help too.

NOW if you have any standard materials present in the scene that could slow things down as well. On a full ship render maybe 30min max. I think my avg on the current destroyer model I am building is 10~20min max (for 1920X1080) depending on what elements are on screen and how big they are. Mostly it is my lum (glow) and translucent materials that eat up time.

One way to test is to utilize the material override (this will replace everything in the scene with whatever material is chosen.) I use this for AO passes or other things like wireframe renders etc. Just place your base hull material in there. If the time decreases drastically you likely have a incompatible material in the scene or something causing high calculations.


ALSO I see you have planar or unwraped textures this can add to calculations. AMT I find textures Actual bitmaps to really eat up render time more than say poly count. That and advanced surfacing. But a good example are super high rez planets with huge multi hundred meg image files will cause hours long render times.

BTW you might want to go into the object properties of the registry object and turn off cast shadows. This way itll look more like a painted element.

Oh I forgot to mention my omni I place Really far out to the point my model is just a speck on screen.

You might also want to look at exposure settings as MR really prefers to have that on. (rendering/exposure control) I use MR photographic with a GAMMA of 2.2 EV value of -0.6
Image control
Highlights 0.7
Mids 1
Shadows .75
whitepoint 6500k
Might vary for you.
BUT you might want to keep the result you have and just adjust in post. I know some who render out very flat images to avoid any clipping in either blacks or whites and then process the image in comp.

EG



So it is looking pretty good now and is quite useable output! Just need to ramp up the self ilum or just run a separate no light ship ilum pass only and overlay that in photoshop as additive to add in the glows.

Heck just colour select in ps works here is a full comp for laughs.

Grain is probably too much as I usually down sample by at least 3 to 4 times IE if it is a 1920 finished image Ill render it out at min 2time that rez. It gives a bit more control over effects. Also, it all depends on your tastes too.

Last edited by Madkoifish; Today at 08:52 AM.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM   #15
trekie015
Ensign
 
Re: 3DS Max Getting a Ship's Hull to Look Real

Thank you so much. Tomorrow I'll change some settings, render out some scenes, and post the results. If I were doing animation, rendering to png files, would the settings be the same, or would I want to lower some? 130 frames rendering at 10-20 minutes each is a lot.
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