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Old July 5 2010, 11:13 PM   #46
Mal
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
In the dark

The Good;
Spike mocking Angel is excellent, lovely to see Oz and a great rescue and final battle at the pier.
Oz seems a bit like Wash: he uses the word laconic in a failed attempt at humor (this is not exactly a common word), and of course there is also the superficial similarity...
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Old July 6 2010, 06:26 AM   #47
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Mal wrote: View Post
her dad reminded me a little of Fraiser's dad, Martin Krane, in the early seasons on Fraiser.
Kate's dad is played by the same actor who played Martin Crane's brother Walt in an episode of Frasier, John Mahon.

Besides which, "the early seasons of Frasier" ? John Mahoney (Martin) was regular a cast member in every episode of all 11 seasons of the show.

Aside: Eerie how similar the two actors' names are, no?

Peridot wrote: View Post
Nods to Forever Knight
Angel the series was partly inspired by a TV series called Forever Knight which ran from 1992-1996. Angel paid homage to FK in clothing style, vintage convertible, sleeping arrangements (no coffin) and occupation.
I know nothing about the origins of the series one way or the other, but I have never read anything to support any connection between the two shows. And frankly, it annoys me when people claim that just because they observe a similarity between shows, obviously it must be an homage or based on or stolen from. Things can happen that have similar results but come from wildly different origins.

Just because there was one other "vampire detective" show in existence does not mean that the two were connected in any way, and it in fact cheapens it in my mind to suggest that they were, as if Whedon weren't capable of coming up with the concept for the show without stealing from someone else.
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Old July 6 2010, 11:24 AM   #48
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Mal wrote: View Post
her dad reminded me a little of Fraiser's dad, Martin Krane, in the early seasons on Fraiser.
Kate's dad is played by the same actor who played Martin Crane's brother Walt in an episode of Frasier, John Mahon.

Besides which, "the early seasons of Frasier" ? John Mahoney (Martin) was regular a cast member in every episode of all 11 seasons of the show.

Aside: Eerie how similar the two actors' names are, no?

Peridot wrote: View Post
Nods to Forever Knight
Angel the series was partly inspired by a TV series called Forever Knight which ran from 1992-1996. Angel paid homage to FK in clothing style, vintage convertible, sleeping arrangements (no coffin) and occupation.
I know nothing about the origins of the series one way or the other, but I have never read anything to support any connection between the two shows. And frankly, it annoys me when people claim that just because they observe a similarity between shows, obviously it must be an homage or based on or stolen from. Things can happen that have similar results but come from wildly different origins.

Just because there was one other "vampire detective" show in existence does not mean that the two were connected in any way, and it in fact cheapens it in my mind to suggest that they were, as if Whedon weren't capable of coming up with the concept for the show without stealing from someone else.
Not to mention Moonlight? I'm afraid I've never seen FK or all of Firefly so you'll have to bear with me.

Hero
The Good;
Actually I rated this ep pretty weak until the last 5 minutes when it then became spectacular. Cordy's advertisement idea and the one she films with Doyle are hilarious but ultimately incredibly poignant. Good scene too when the kid tells Doyle his Halloween story.
The Bad;
I didn't really dig the demons in peril storyline and I thought the Naiz allegory with The Scourge was a bit thick (nowadays they'd be the Taliban). Also they seem to accept Angel into their ranks a little too easily. Even their vehicles look Nazi-like and DB's hair looks very 1940s.
Best line:
Doyle; Is that it? Am I done?

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Doyle's melting face
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches (Cordy's ad is one big Angel cliche)
Damsel in distress; nope, 2.
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
The sidekick sacrifices himself to save the day rather than the hero
In disguise; 3 as a Nazi/scourge
DB get's his shirt off; 3
Cordy's tatto;2
Cheap Angel; 2. Exactly what do all these people owe Angel money for?
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 4
Wes: 1

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 8
Angel: 7
Wes: 1
Doyle; 1

Kills:
Cordy: none this ep. 3 vamps, ½ a demon from her time in Sunnydale
Angel: 2 Scourge for Angel. So that gives Angel 8 vamps, 6 demons, 2 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 1
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 5

Characters killed: the treacherous first mate so we won't count him
14
Recurring characters killed;
1; Goodbye Doyle

Total number of Angel Investigations:
2, Angel and Cordy

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 5,
Packing heat;
Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 1?
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
The wonderfully named Big Randy.
Captain Subtext;
Doyle imagines Angel in tights.
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
2
Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy characters appearing in Angel; (unless someone can correct me no original Angel character ever appears on Buffy?)
5; Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy
Questions and observations;
So goodbye Doyle, we hardly knew you. A good ending for the character but all the more sad by Glenn Quinn's death shortly afterwards. Cordy refers to 'one of the cheaper Baldwins' in her description of the advert. I always thought Adam Baldwin was one but according to IMDB no he's not. Angel on a motorbike, Cordy drives a truck, is there no end to her talents? Once again we see demons who are slowly being won over to humanity. The Scourge are trying to stop this but are unwittingly aping human's themselves.
Marks out of 10; 7/10, a weak ep rescued by it's awesome finale
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Old July 7 2010, 07:51 AM   #49
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

i liked doyle much more than wes (probably cause i've never seen buffy). anyway, does anyone know why doyle was killed off?
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Old July 7 2010, 12:09 PM   #50
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Mal wrote: View Post
i liked doyle much more than wes (probably cause i've never seen buffy). anyway, does anyone know why doyle was killed off?
Joss said he always intended to kill him to sweep the legs from under us, just like Jesse in WTTH. Of couse Glenn Quinn was a heroin addict which may also have affected his decision.
Never seen Buffy? Lucky thing, go out and buy the DVDs RIGHT NOW!

Parting Gifts
The Good;
Wonderful reintroduction for Wes and a nice period of mourning for Doyle. Plus Cordy's audition and the Oracles again.
The Bad;
Once again, Alexis Denisoff's name is in the titles, ruining the suprise a little
Best line:
"Grass stains!" (all in the delivery). Also liked Wes "I bet you always wondered what became of your old pal Wesley?"
Angel; "Tell you the truth I never gave it much thought"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Barney's plans for Cordy are beyond horrible. But she teaches him not to mess with Queen C
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches
Damsel in distress; nope, 2.
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
In disguise; 3
DB get's his shirt off; 3
Cordy's tattoo; 3 yep she bares that beautiful midriff again
Cheap Angel; 2
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 4
Wes: 1

Fang gang knocked out: yep, Cordy
Cordy: 9
Angel: 7
Wes: 1
Doyle; 1

Kills:
Cordy: none this ep. 3 vamps, ½ a demon from her time in Sunnydale
Angel: 1 demon for Angel. So that gives Angel 8 vamps, 4 demons, 2 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 1
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 5

Characters killed:
14
Recurring characters killed;
1;

Total number of Angel Investigations:
2, Angel and Cordy

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 5,
Packing heat;
Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 1?
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
Wes in motorbiking leathers which are so tight they 'chafe'. He and Cordy share a second kiss, Cordy is sold as a slave for the first time.
Captain Subtext;
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
2
Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy characters appearing in Angel; (unless someone can correct me no original Angel character ever appears on Buffy?)
6; Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes
Questions and observations;
Another WR&H lackie but this one doesn't become a recurring character. Angel says that vamps don't sleep in coffins but Dracula does. Angel recognises talent when he sees it, Wes' translation skills alone make him invaluable.
Barney seems a prototype for Lorne
Marks out of 10; 7/10
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Old July 7 2010, 04:27 PM   #51
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

[QUOTE=saturn5;4223483]
Mal wrote: View Post
The Bad;
Once again, Alexis Denisoff's name is in the titles, ruining the suprise a little
If I'm not mistaken I think Doyle was still in the credits for this episode and not Wesley.

I remember being genuinely surprised (the first time I saw the ep) when he showed up and by the end of the ep I was still wondering if he was going to stay.
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Old July 7 2010, 09:15 PM   #52
Mal
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Mal wrote: View Post
i liked doyle much more than wes (probably cause i've never seen buffy). anyway, does anyone know why doyle was killed off?
Joss said he always intended to kill him to sweep the legs from under us, just like Jesse in WTTH. Of couse Glenn Quinn was a heroin addict which may also have affected his decision.
Never seen Buffy? Lucky thing, go out and buy the DVDs RIGHT NOW!
unlikely.
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Old July 8 2010, 02:46 PM   #53
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Mal wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Mal wrote: View Post
i liked doyle much more than wes (probably cause i've never seen buffy). anyway, does anyone know why doyle was killed off?
Joss said he always intended to kill him to sweep the legs from under us, just like Jesse in WTTH. Of couse Glenn Quinn was a heroin addict which may also have affected his decision.
Never seen Buffy? Lucky thing, go out and buy the DVDs RIGHT NOW!
unlikely.
Trust me if you like Angel and Firefly Buffy is for the most part better than both!

Expecting
The Good;
Cordy hits the town with the girls but gets more than she bargained for. Great to see Phantom Dennis back and his scenes with Cordy are beyond lovely.
Love the reaction of the doctor and nurse during the ultrasound. Very good ep
The Bad;
How come Cordy is dressed after sex?
Best line:
Angel; You're not alone
Cordy; That's kind of the problem

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Cordy and co in the goop, yuck
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches
Damsel in distress; 8, a whole bevy of them
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
In disguise; 3
DB get's his shirt off; 3
Cordy's tattoo;3
Cheap Angel; 2
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 5
Wes: 1

Fang gang knocked out: Wes by Cordy
Cordy: 8
Angel: 7
Wes: 2
Doyle; 1

Kills:
Cordy: I'll give this one to Cordy. 3 vamps, 1½ demons
Angel: half a demon so 8 vamps, 4 and 1/2 demons, 2 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 1/2 a demon

Fang Gang go evil: yep, Cordy overwhelmed by her maternal instincts
Cordy: 2
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 5

Characters killed:
20
Recurring characters killed;
1;

Total number of Angel Investigations:
2, Angel and Cordy

Angel Investigations shot: yep, Angel
Angel: 6,
Packing heat; Wes with a pistol (presumably taken from the gun club?)
Wes; 1
Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: I thought it was Xander who had the thing for demons?
Cordy: 2 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
How gorgeous are CCs friends, especially Sarina? Obviously this goes some VERY dark places, it smacks of GOT fetishism (beautiful women being raped and impregnated by demons/monsters/aliens who they then fall in love with), the ultrasound reminds me of the infamous maternity ward scene in Aliens vs Predator; Requiem (of course Joss wrote Alien Ressurection so he's no stranger to the concept). Considering that Joss is supposed to be this great pro-feminist he puts his heroines through a lot of nasty stuff, almost like he wants to have his cake and eat it. Wilson apparently nearly had phonesex with the resteraunt manager to get them in. Cordy drinks Angel's pig's blood, Angel states he never realised how disgusting it was until just then. At the end Cordy states she's learned sex is bad and men are evil. Angel agrees.
Captain Subtext;
The girls assume Wes and Angel are a couple. Angel says it adds mystery. Angel describes Cordy as family and she says she trusts him and Wes implicitly.
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
3,
Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy characters appearing in Angel; (unless someone can correct me no original Angel character ever appears on Buffy?)
6; Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes
Questions and observations;
Fun story, putting Angel Investigations together more and more. How wonderful that when Wes has to come up with a name for him and Cordy he decides on Mr and Mrs Penborne. Angel comments that their French client made him want to drink a lot. Alcohol or blood? CC refers to Angel giving her date the 3rd degree which he and Doyle also did in the Bachelor Party. Wes refers to David and Goliath, the Watchers Council occasionally make biblical references.
Marks out of 10; 7/10
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Old July 8 2010, 07:35 PM   #54
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Trust me if you like Angel and Firefly Buffy is for the most part better than both!
What, no Firefly review thread? Da-shiang bao-tza shr duh lah doo-tze!
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Old July 9 2010, 12:30 AM   #55
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Rm w/a vu

Cordy's tatto; our first glimpse
oh indeed
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Old July 9 2010, 01:11 AM   #56
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Mal, I think you've created a mobius loop.

I click one and then the other. My brain is fried.
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Old July 9 2010, 12:36 PM   #57
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Scrawny71 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Trust me if you like Angel and Firefly Buffy is for the most part better than both!
What, no Firefly review thread? Da-shiang bao-tza shr duh lah doo-tze!
No, Firefly/Serenity never gripped me like Joss' other shows but if you want to do a rewatch I'd be happy to read them. Will be doing Dollhouse S2 soon as I get the DVDs

SHE

The Good;

Angel and Wesley dancing at Cordy's party is possibly the funniest thing you've ever seen. A laudable if slightly heavy-handed rant against female circumsision. Also love the scene where Angel pretends to be an art guide and Angel and Phantom Dennis.

The Bad;

The scene where Wes tries to chat-up the girl at the party is cringeworthy, he's pretty much treated as the comic relief for this ep. The scene where the camera wheels around whilst Angel and Jiera talk, growing increasingly worked up carries on for so long and is so over the top it's almost parody.

Best line:

Mars; "The little sisters are chilling"

Also like Cordy's;

"I'm so glad you came. You know how parties are, you're always worried that no one is going to suck the energy out of the room like a giant black hole of boring despair but there you were in a cinch"


Jeez, how did they get away with that?

The whole 'unmaking' scene is just unwatchable. The contrast between it and the obvious affection between the 'unmade' girl and her captors when they send her back is incredibly creepy, especially her 'dead behind the eyes' expression and the way she refers to herself in third person.

Apocalypses: 4

Angel Cliches

Damsel in distress; 15, a whole bevy of them

Inverting the Hollywood cliche; Wes and CC snooping at the garden centre amazingly don't get caught.

In disguise; 3

DB get's his shirt off; yep, he feels the need for a shower

4

Cordy's tattoo;3

Cheap Angel; 2

Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 5
Wes: 1

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 8
Angel: 7
Wes: 2
Doyle; 1


Kills:
Cordy: I'll give this one to Cordy. 3 vamps, 1½ demons
Angel: half a demon so 8 vamps, 4 and 1/2 demons, 2 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp

Wes; 1/2 a demon


Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 5

Characters killed: 5, the poor guys burned to death by the demonbabes

25

Recurring characters killed;

1;


Total number of Angel Investigations:
3, Angel and Cordy and Wes officially joins the firm for the first time

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 6,

Packing heat;

Wes; 1

Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 2 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:

I'd say that Bai Ling is lovely but that seems quite redundant even with the ridges and violet eyes (she's also in Southland Tales with SMG). Cordy's friend Laura also sounds like a fun girl as is her friend 'Pants on' Diego. Naked hotties on ice who seems to have a strong effect on both Wes and Angel. Mars says his Shaman could never turn away 'Scantily clad women in distress'. Wes refers to the girls at the party as 'fillies'.

Captain Subtext;

Obviously this is an allegory against female circumsision (once watched a documentary on it and afterwards went and got drunk for the first time in my life to try to blank the memory). Although you wonder if the males' fear of the females is more to do with them burning people to death rather than just simple chauvanism? Note that the male demons don't hurt any humans, it's Jhira and co who killing and she's quite prepared to let Wes and Cordy die for her cause. Not to stereotype but Wes has a knowledge of flowers in addition to the occult.

Know the face, different character; 2

Parking garages;

3,

Guantanamo Bay;

Angel once again beats his way to the truth

Buffy characters on Angel;

6; Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes

Questions and observations;

Angel refers to his time in Hell again where he remarks he knew many of the people. AI use their mobile phones to good effect. It'll take the Sunnydale Scoobies another 3 years to get theirs. Great performance from Sean Gunn as the spa manager, always thought he was in Desperate Housewives but he's not. Wes handles himself well in a fight for the first time. The only ep of Angel with a sequence over the end titles (Buffy does it in The Puppet Show). It seems unlikely that Angel actually knew Manet or Baudelaire as he would actually have been Angelus at the time?

Marks out of 10; 7/10, Keith Topping loathes this ep but I think it's quite good
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Old July 9 2010, 07:04 PM   #58
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Scrawny71 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Trust me if you like Angel and Firefly Buffy is for the most part better than both!
What, no Firefly review thread? Da-shiang bao-tza shr duh lah doo-tze!
No, Firefly/Serenity never gripped me like Joss' other shows but if you want to do a rewatch I'd be happy to read them.
Could happen.
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Old July 9 2010, 07:11 PM   #59
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Scrawny71 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Scrawny71 wrote: View Post
What, no Firefly review thread? Da-shiang bao-tza shr duh lah doo-tze!
No, Firefly/Serenity never gripped me like Joss' other shows but if you want to do a rewatch I'd be happy to read them.
Could happen.
cool!

Now if I was to do a Firefly/Serenity rewatch, would people read that?
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Old July 9 2010, 10:10 PM   #60
Mal
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
I will remember you


Marks out of 10; 6/10

an ep with buffy rates a 6. and this is why i won't be watching the actual show.
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