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Old October 7 2010, 03:51 AM   #256
lvsxy808
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Very little Lorne, he's really sidelined this season even if he's now a regular.  
I can see that, yes. But he also has one of the most compelling character arcs of the season, when you look at it through "Conviction," through "Life of the party," to "A Hole in the World" and on to "Not Fade Away."

I think that basically the whole reason that Lorne wasn't a regular character before now (as I've complained about before) was they couldn't be sure of coming up with anything to do with him. And that they made him a regular because Joss didn't want him to have never been a regular if the show got cancelled at the end of season 4. But after the show wasn't cancelled, they still couldn't guarantee him any storylines, even though he was a regular.

All of which is ironic, since I think Lorne has a more solid role in the series than, for example, Spike or Gunn.
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Old October 7 2010, 01:41 PM   #257
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Very little Lorne, he's really sidelined this season even if he's now a regular.  
I can see that, yes. But he also has one of the most compelling character arcs of the season, when you look at it through "Conviction," through "Life of the party," to "A Hole in the World" and on to "Not Fade Away."

I think that basically the whole reason that Lorne wasn't a regular character before now (as I've complained about before) was they couldn't be sure of coming up with anything to do with him. And that they made him a regular because Joss didn't want him to have never been a regular if the show got cancelled at the end of season 4. But after the show wasn't cancelled, they still couldn't guarantee him any storylines, even though he was a regular.

All of which is ironic, since I think Lorne has a more solid role in the series than, for example, Spike or Gunn.
Yeah, you're right, although the payoff at the end makes it all worthwhile. And of course there's this ep;

LIFE OF THE PARTY
The Good;
Great acting from Andy Hallet, really showing some range here. Love the characterisation of Sebassis, he's like a demonic Noel Coward. "Yes, yes, sycophants writhe before me, you disgust me!"
The Bad;
Why do Knox and co keep referring to last years party? I thought the Beast killed everyone except Lilah? Were they brought in from WR&H branches in other cities? Obviously this ep owes a lot to the Buffy ep Something Blue with the Lorne storyline thrown in. The monster Lorne just looks stupid, reminds me of Dr Jekyll from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Best line;
Harmony; (of Angel's leadership)"Good luck! Morale here stinks. Everyone thinks you suck!"
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
The Pee-Pee demon is SUCH a yucky concept. Equally Gunn staking his territory is eugghh! Personally I always found lack of sleep the worst torture imagineable.
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17, naked Angelx2
Cheap Angel; 7
Subverting the cliche;
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 5
Lorne; 5
Fred; 3

Fang gang knocked out: Lorne for about a month
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 7
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 2
Lorne; 7
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 3
Kills;
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 60 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 humans
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang; Lorne's id monster
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed:
2256
Recurring characters killed;
9;
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, .
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat;
Wes; 9
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 2

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Eve and Angel, wonder what Lindsey made of THAT! Got his job and his girl!
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky:
Voyeur Eve spies on naked Angel in the shower. She wonder if Angel needs some 'hands on' gentlemen's time. Harmony dancing! MMMMMMmmmm! Mercedes sure can cut a rug! Spike refers to Harmony as Angel's chippy just as CC did with the Furies. Angel considers Eve's quite lovely dress to be 'banging it out to the cheap seats'. Eve and Angel get it on big time, even with Lorne and Spike still IN THE ROOM! Eve has had sex under the 'great roofie spirit' before (maybe she ran into RJ's brother or dad?)
Captain Subtext;
Eve comments that Angel takes a long shower 'for a guy'. Sebassis strokes the PP demon affectionately. Lorne talks about jacuzzi strategy sessions. Fred and Wes start coming together. Gunn stakes his territory on Angel's chair, does this mean he wants to replace him?
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages;
8,
Guantanamo Bay
Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
What the fanficcers thought;
Not a lot, Eve/Angel actually less popular a pairing than even Connor/Cordy
Missing scenes;
Questions and observations;
Lorne now loves Harmony and vice versa. He refers to Angel as Top Cat. Note Spike is now included in the AI meetings. Harmony now plays the CC role of saying what's true but what no one wants to say. Angel is a hockey fan as is DB. Who's raggedy Anne? They certainly do celebrate Halloween in England although not to the same degree as in America (in fact it's more celebrated in America than anywhere else including Ireland where it originiates from). Fred appear to be a violent drunk, good thing she stuck with cannabis. Wes' dancing has got a lot better since She.
Marks out of 10; 7/10 fun, nice to see Lorne get some decent screen time
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Old October 8 2010, 09:34 AM   #258
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

THE CAUTIONARY TALE OF NUMERO CINCO
The Good;
Love the return of the brothers and love the idea of El Diablo Robotico, we MUST see that in the Angel comics some time. Love Angel's cadiallac and the ref to Holland Manners.
The Bad;
Angel seems very rough with No5 at his apartment, he could have killed him! Don't you think Angel's rather full of himself about being the hero.
Best line;
Angel; "Wes, did you ever hear about the devil building a robot?"
Wes; "Ah, el diablo robotico!"
Angel; "No one ever tells me anything"
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Hearts cut from bodies
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,
Cheap Angel; 7
Subverting the cliche; Angel's heart no good because it's 'dried up beef jerky'. No5 thinks Angel wants to drag him into the quest but actually just wants to give him some mail. After Angel's stirring speech No5 just jumps on the bus
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 5
Lorne; 5
Fred; 3

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 7
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 2
Lorne; 7
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 3
Kills; Angel kills the demon with a little help from his friends (or should that be amigos?)
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 61 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 humans
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed: 4+No5 victims, the security guards have to be the redshirts of the Buffyverse
2261
Recurring characters killed; No5
10
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, Spike however is now coming along for the ride on investigations.
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat; Wes with his shotgun (nice gag about the weapons check)
Wes; 10
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 2

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky:
Spike remarks he can't 'diddle his willy'. He again refers to Harmony as 'his old tumble' and is jealous that she's now Angel's pet.
Captain Subtext;
Angel remarks of 'the father will kill the son' to Wes who hasn't a clue what he's talking about. How much do the rest of the gang remember? Spike refers to Angel as a drama queen. Now of course Liam is the Irish version of William so maybe 'diddle his willy' has another meaning?
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages;
8,
Guantanamo Bay
Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
What the fanficcers thought;
Missing scenes;
Questions and observations;
Great ref where the man who recruits number 5 is Holland Manners from season 2. Can anyone tell me whom the aging starlet Lorne is referring to? Wonder Woman referenced, this is at a time when Joss was planning the movie which sadly didn't come off (love to have seen ED or CC in the role). Very clear that Gunn is the most comfortable at WR&H. Angel's photographic memory again. Angel appears to limp some of the time, because of the beatings he's recieved or because DB's knee is giving him trouble? Note Spike knows how to defeat the demon through his poetic soul. Angel enters No5's home without an invite but does No5 dragging him inside count as one? So what happens the medallion after the fall of WR&H? Love to see it and the creature turn up some time in Fray.
Marks out of 10; 6/10, ok but not brilliant
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Old October 9 2010, 03:42 PM   #259
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

LINEAGE
 
The Good;
Hard boiled Wes in both terms of his negotiations and gunplay. All the scenes with Wes and his dad are excellent as is the assault on WR&H
The Bad;
We tolerate a lot of dramatic licence in terms of what AI can endure but Gunn being chucked against the staircase should kill him. If WR&H have this staff that controls Angel why not use it before?
Best line;
Wes (after Emil prattles on); "If I'd know this was a seminar I'd have worn a name-tag"
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Hooks through the throat! Also Wes gropes around the cyborg's guts with his bare hands?
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,
Cheap Angel; 7
Subverting the cliche;
Fang Gang in bondage: Gunn chained
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 6
Lorne; 5
Fred; 3

Fang gang knocked out: Fred passes out, Wes knocked out by his 'dad'
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 8
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 2
Lorne; 7
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 4
Kills; Wes kills one of Emil's goons and 2 cyborgs. Angel kills a cyborg.
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 61 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed:
2261
Recurring characters killed;
10
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, here Spike saves Gunn
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat; Wes with his 45s, Fred with the sniper rifle. Presumably Wes uses the 13-shot model of the 45 as he fires 9 bullets when he shoots his 'father'.
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky:
Emil is turned on by the sight of a woman handling a powerful weapon. Well who isn't? Worked for Ripley/Sarah Connor! Wes' dad describes his mum as 'sturdy'? Spike refers to him having sex with the Buffybot and his mum trying to 'shag' him. I know the Buffybot is true but is that really true about his mum? Not from my recollection.
Captain Subtext;
Lorne hints that Churchill and Richard Harris had a love child? Spike thinks Wes was grown in a school for dandies. Angel says he's not comfortable with hugging. Like CC in Spin the Bottle Spike makes great fun of Wesley being 'Head boy' (good thing he never let's on about his own relationship with his mother). Whereas the prophecy stated that the father will kill the son here we have the son killing the father (although neither turns out to be true). Angel wears a lot more grey than black this season perhaps illustrating his moral ambiguity?
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages;
8,
Guantanamo Bay
Wes ruthlessly tortures the cyborg.
Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
What the fanficcers thought;
 
Missing scenes;
Questions and observations;
Emil is the guy who sold Wes his James Bond style weapons in Spin the Bottle. The ninjas are reminiscent of both the old Disney Star Wars clone The Black Hole and Snake-Eyes from Action Force/GI JOE. Note as soon as his dad shows up Wes returns to his klutzy season 1 self (just like Tara get's her stutter back in Family). Does Lorne say that Louis Gossett Jnr wants a phone party or foam party? Are the cyborgs Twilight? The Initiative? Or are they really from the Watcher's Council? Wes' dad and co stopped pre-soul Spike slaughtering an orphanage, you have to remember that the Watcher's Council were good guys who wanted to protect people. Nice ref to Lilah. Spike still fears Pavayne. Is it really Wes' dad? The imposter seems to know an awful lot about him, more so than any Watcher's files could say. Fathers as always poorly portrayed in the Buffyverse. Wes' 45. fires nine shots so presumably it's the 13 shot version rather than the standard? Angel and Spike recount the stories of killing their own parents. The story of little Wes trying to ressurect a dead bird speaks much of his humanity. Roy Dotrice holds the dubious distinction of being one of only three people ever killed onscreen in The A-Team (anyone name me the other 2? Or can you name all 7 members of the A-Team?). His daughter also married the late Edward Woodward.
Marks out of 10; 8/10, nice to have a Wesley centric ep
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Old October 9 2010, 04:47 PM   #260
AJBryant
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
[Love the characterisation of Sebassis, he's like a demonic Noel Coward. "Yes, yes, sycophants writhe before me, you disgust me!"
You're magnificent.
__________________
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Old October 10 2010, 04:58 PM   #261
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

AJBryant wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
[Love the characterisation of Sebassis, he's like a demonic Noel Coward. "Yes, yes, sycophants writhe before me, you disgust me!"
You're magnificent.
Don't put your daughter on the stage!

DESTINY
 
The Good;
The fight, the race, the flashbacks, all great! And the great ending. The Fred/Eve hurt/comfort scene is also very powerful
The Bad;
As they point out in the commentary the Alice Cooper eyeshadow. Also the idea that Lorne would just lock himself in his office, I mean this is the guy who went to fight the Beast.
Best line;
Spike; "Mountan Dew!"
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Gunn throttling Eve is horrible, reminds you of Lilah/Gavin. Spike and Angelus crashing the wedding.
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,
Cheap Angel; 7
Subverting the cliche;
Mountain Dew! Also when Fred tries to sympathise with Eve and Eve rejects her concern.
Fang Gang in bondage: Gunn chained to the bed
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 7
Lorne; 5
Fred; 3

Fang gang knocked out: Gunn doped up
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 8
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 3
Lorne; 7
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 4
Kills;
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 61 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Fang Gang go evil: Gunn big time
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed:
2261
Recurring characters killed;
10
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat;
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Spike get's 'solid' again and jumps on top of a willing Harmony like the dumb tramp she is
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
Spike and Harmony on the desk. Unromantic but having been denied the touch of a woman (or anything else) for so long hardly suprising Spike jumps on the first (room temperature) body he can get? Angelus and Dru, much to Spike's dismay. Dru refers to Spike as 'sweet willy'. Darla still devoted to her Master much to Angelus's disgust. Spike let's slip about the circumstances of him killing his mother, Harmony comments how it explains a lot. Fred knows what the term 'nooner' means. Love Eve's dress and the sexy striptease she does at the end. Gunn cautions Eve 'Don't be touching the robots'. Spike describes sex with Buffy as 'putting it to her'. Gunn says that Fred might want to tie him down again, does he mean when he went crazy or when they were dating?
Captain Subtext;
Angelus comments that he's sick of the company of just women and asks Spike if he thinks he's 'deviant'? Angel asks the newly corporeal Spike to stop touching him. Angelus bids Spike to be 'Home before sunrise' again casting the Fanged Four as a sort of family with him as the father and Spike as the son. Eve calls Fred 'princess' and 'sweetie', Spike calls Angel a ponce. Spike is happy to voyeuristically watch Angelus having sex until he realises it's with Dru. As with Lover's Walk, souled Angel still knows how to push Spike's buttons. Once again Spike and Dru seem to retain some aspect of humanity which other vamps lack, Angelus saying that vamps can't know true love ('Nothing is yours')and Spike and Dru intent on trying anyway. Spike also hugs Gunn and asks him to go drinking with him at the end of the ep. Even Joss comments upon the homo-eroticism of the Spike/Angel scenes.
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages;
8,
Guantanamo Bay
Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
What the fanficcers thought;
A great gift for Spangelers
Missing scenes;
Questions and observations;
No Wes who's on a leave of abscence, possibly heading home to visit his folks after the events of Lineage (Alexis Dennisof in real life marrying Alysson Hannigan the lucky bugger). I'm sure the idea of everyone being sent mad by a phonecall was a Stephen King book? Eve quotes The Music Man. Hell of a tumble MM's stuntwoman takes when Spike hits her. Instead of racing Spike why doesn't Angel use his helicopter? Presumably Angel and Spike reach the opera house at the same time because Angel already knows where it is?
DB apparently loves doing his Irish accent. Has he ever heard it? Gunn sees the howling abyss but obviously the budget won't stretch that far so the rest of us don't get to.
Spike is right of course, he IS better than Angel because he fought to get his soul back. He blames Angel(us) not for making him a vampire but for making him the evil monster of a vampire he was, that it was Angelus' influence that made him worse than all the rest. Spike comments that Dru still has a bit of a child in her, like him she still retains some humanity. Or he retains some humanity BECAUSE she was his sire.
Angel asks Spike does he want the destiny because it's his or because it's something to take away from Angel? You could make the same argument for Buffy, did Spike love her for his own sake or because she was Angel's and he wanted her for himself? As revenge for Angelus/Dru?
And of course, Spike beats Angel in a fair fight! I guess that's one question answered. Does the title Destiny refer to Angel and Spike or might it actually refer to Lindsey who thinks his destiny is to run WR&H?
Marks out of 10; 9/10 for the Angel(us)/Spike scenes alone
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Old October 10 2010, 09:35 PM   #262
AJBryant
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
AJBryant wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
[Love the characterisation of Sebassis, he's like a demonic Noel Coward. "Yes, yes, sycophants writhe before me, you disgust me!"
You're magnificent.
Don't put your daughter on the stage!
I was going to say "I think I love you" but I couldn't remember if you were a lady-fan or a guy-fan, and I didn't want to commit a "bro" pas.
__________________
Abba Anthony [St. Anthony the Great] said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.' " -- Wisdom of the Desert Fathers
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Old October 11 2010, 09:27 AM   #263
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

AJBryant wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
AJBryant wrote: View Post

You're magnificent.
Don't put your daughter on the stage!
I was going to say "I think I love you" but I couldn't remember if you were a lady-fan or a guy-fan, and I didn't want to commit a "bro" pas.
"Indianna wants me, but I can't go back there.." at least until the statute of limitations runs out.

HARM'S WAY
 
The Good;
All things Harmony, love the demon summit stuff and Fred and Harm bonding. Great bitchfight between Harmony and her rival. The WR&H corporate video is also great they should have got Troy McClure to do the voiceover.
The Bad;
It's lightweight and inconsequential but it's meant to be.
Best line;
Fred; "I'm sure Angel can help you"
Harmony; "Angel's not a helper, he's a chopper" (as her friend Eli found out)
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
You feel so sorry for poor lonely Harm, just because she's evil doesn't means she doesn't have feelings.
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,
Cheap Angel; 8 he refuses to give Spike any travelling cash but will lend him a car if it gets him out of town "Typical, you cheap sod".
Subverting the cliche;
Fang Gang in bondage: Lorne and Fred tied up
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 7
Lorne; 6
Fred; 4

Fang gang knocked out: Fred and Lorne knocked out by Harmony
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 8
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 3
Lorne; 8
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 5
Kills; one demon for Angel
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed: poor Toby
2261
Recurring characters killed;
10
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat;
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
Harmony 'sluts it up' and beds a guy she picks up in a bar. She comments that Fred doesn't have 'a lot up front', sad but true and something she's a little self-conscious about to judge by Spin the Bottle. Fred actually knows that Wes and Knox are after her, you think back to her remark at the end of Waiting in the Wings. She thinks both are hot. Harmony offers to show Angel her abs. The demons refer to Angel as a 'filthy man whore'.
Captain Subtext;
The girls doubt Wesley could be interested in Fred because 'Everyone knows he's...muffins'. Vamps consider live people to be 'straight'. Despite implying that a male vamp would have to be gay to bite another man Harmony eyes up the necks of the office girls and has bitten Willow in the past. Fred and Harmony's night out resembles a date
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages; yep, where Harm dumps the body
9,
Guantanamo Bay
Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
What the fanficcers thought;
Missing scenes;
Questions and observations;
Always thought that Harmony's rival looked familar, finally recognised her as Karen, one of John Lithgow's students from 3rd Rock from the Sun. Angel and Spike are still bashed up from Destiny. We knew Spike and Fred were chummy but he seems to be on good terms with Lorne too. Was Harm ever really popular or did she just ride on CC's coatails? WR&H 'own' the LAPD which must have been news to Kate. It strikes me that if you really are an astronaut it must be a useless pickup line as no one actually believes you. Spike comes back to Harm in the end, shows his sensitive side and appears to finally give up any hope of ever being with Buffy
Marks out of 10;7/10 a lot of folks loathe this ep but I rather like it
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Old October 12 2010, 09:46 AM   #264
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

SOUL PURPOSE
The Good;
Brilliant dream sequences, especially like Honky Tonk, Fred's surgery and the apocalypse fantasy. Interesting to see Spike and Lindsey setting themselves up like a proto Angel and Doyle.
The Bad;
Stupid looking creature and I don't buy the whole earrings idea. What's Lindsey's plan, he doesn't want to kill Angel as he sends Spike to rescue him? Just want to dishearten him so he gives up? Afraid that killing him would incur the wrath of the Senior Partners?
Best line;
Wes; "You're overlooking the merits of assassination" (words to make James Bond proud!)
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18, yep and his chest opened.
Cheap Angel; 8
Subverting the cliche; Spike tells off the woman he rescued for walking down dark alleys in high heels.
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 7
Lorne; 6
Fred; 4

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 8
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 3
Lorne; 8
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 5
Kills; Spike kills 5 vamps (2 offscreen) plus the parasite. Does Lindsey hire these guys and set them up to be killed or does Spike just patrol and run into them?
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed:
2261
Recurring characters killed;
10
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat;
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
As the writer states, the way to endear yourself to a film crew is to set a scene in a strip club (and a HUGE number of shows seem to end up there eventually), lots of lovely ladies wearing very little flexing themselves around poles. Angel gives Fred a pearl necklace, a pornographic slang term you either understand or you don't so I'm certainly not going to explain it here.
Captain Subtext;
Lindsey almost seems to trying a gay pickup on Spike who refers to him as Mary and Butch. He says he doesn't want to be Lindsey's 'kept boy'. Fred retrieves a pearl necklace from Angel's stomach? Angel imagines himself in bed with Buffy AND Spike (in the comics Buffy fantasises about the same except they're all in chains and she's dressed as a sexy nurse). Note however there are also female clients in the strip club.
Spike refers to himself as a 'working class lad'. Rubbish, his 'mockney' accent is all a sham as Lies My Parents Told Me proved. He's upper class. This may be some form of class guilt from Angel who was middle class (The Prodigal) and feels bad about all the luxury he know enjoys. Get Gunn together and they could do the Class sketch from the David Frost show (funniest sketch EVER!)
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages;
9,
Guantanamo Bay;
"Sold their children to the devil, KILL THEM ALL!" Angel has his Xena moment.
Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
What the fanficcers thought;
Remember reading an interesting one once where the stripper called Sunshine who Spike is watching is actually Kate Lochley earning money to fund her law degree (so that she can change her identity and become a DA in New York). Also not a few from Spikettes where Spike is the hero and takes over WR&H from Angel.
Missing scenes;
Apparently for an April Fools Day gag there was a trailer for Dollhouse where Echo and Ballard get in the lift and ask the bear from this ep to hit the floor button for them. Anyone seen it?
Questions and observations;
What does Harmony's remark about Machiavelli mean? Interesting that Spike used to do good deeds in order to impress his love Buffy. Now he does them because he has a conscience and it's the right thing to do. Eve is already wearing her earrings in the Honky Tonk scene. You can't help but think Wes and Gunn would make a good pair if they were ever to remake Miami Vice (certainly better than Fox and Farrell). Spike reads Wes and Gunn perfectly, once more showing his insight, the points he makes are all very true as Gunn is loathe to admit. Harmony remarks of Angel "Act like we care", Harm's Way obviously still rankles. What's the significance of the stone, is it just a plain red herring? The critter is very Aliens/Bad Eggs/The Hidden. Great to have DB's commentary but wish he'd talk less about cameras and more about the series as a whole. Eve says that Spike has yet to have a big red S on his shirt, may be coincidence but of course JM appears on Smallville. Once again Spike quotes Star Wars despite his mocking the Geeks for doing so in Sunnydale.
The bear may be a reference to Hoopy Bear, a demonic teddy bear from the Buffy comics that turns into a real bear and acts out it's owners inner desires Something Blue style. Problem is the demon acolytes accidentally give it to Dawn rather than Buffy who's in the asylum at the time. Read it if you can, very cute story with a lovely ending of Dawn, Hank and Joyce happy together and a dejected Hoopy Bear down and out drinking beer behind the 7-11. Does Spike have any money stashed? He seemed to constantly be broke in Sunnydale. Shame SMG couldn't do a cameo, do we know the name of her double? She could go into the list of actresses who played Buffy along with SMG, Kristy Swanson, Eliza Dushku and the 2 little Buffy's we see in 'Weight of the World' and 'Killed by Death'.
Marks out of 10; 8/10
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Old October 13 2010, 09:52 AM   #265
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

DAMAGE

The Good;
Great breakout scene, very Halloween, Terminator 2. Andrew is funny as hell and wonderful final scene between Spike and Angel.

The Bad;
How does Lindsey know about these things to send Spike to?

Best line;
Angel (of Dana); "She's an innocent victim"
Spike; "So were we, once upon a time"
Makes me tear up every single time!

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
All the torture and murder scenes and of course Spike's arms being cut off! Can't watch any of the scenes with Dana being tortured or her family being killed, just too horrible

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Cliches

In disguise; 8

DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,

Cheap Angel; 8

Fang Gang in bondage: Spike chained up
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 7
Lorne; 6
Fred; 4
Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out: Spike
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 8
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 3
Lorne; 8
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 5
Spike; 5

Kills;
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed: Dana cuts up the 2 poor orderlies at the hospital, the unfortunate security guard at the supermarket (someone should count all the security guards who get killed in Buffy/Angel over the years) and the tragic docker who tries to help her
2265

Recurring characters killed;
10

Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2

Packing heat;
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
Andrew refers to Fred as 'attractive slender woman'. Lorne calls his assistant to get the whip. Spike asks Andrew if he's ever tasted 'a penny' From The Big Bang Theory? (Thank you scrawny71 for pointing out that)

Captain Subtext;
Andrew says that Spike is beautiful and comments on his 'Viggo Mortenson' pecs. Spike calls Andrew a ponce.

Know the face, different character; 5

Parking garages;
9,

Guantanamo Bay;
Andrew takes Dana into protective custody

Buffy characters on Angel; 17 Andrew
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

What the fanficcers thought;
 
Missing scenes;

Questions and observations;
Note Dana marks herself just as the first Slayer did. Gunn of all people loves the system, very different from his first entry to WR&H in season 1. Note that some of Dana's drawing have the Shadowmen in it. When Dana speaks in Chinise Spike replies with the same words he said to the Chinise Slayer as he killed her. Wes is in touch with Giles (through his father if nothing else?). Spike jokes that Angel's worry is starting to make him look old, a comment in ageless vampire Angel starting to look a few years older. Irrelevant that Spike didn't torture Dana or kill her family because he did it to THOUSANDS of other people. Remember the little girl in the coal cellar? No one trusts Angel any more, he realises that he and Wes&co have cut themselves off from the other Scoobs.
Buffy and Dawn are in Rome with Dawn going to an Italian school. The reason we saw so little Joyce in season 4 is that Kristine Sutherland was housesitting in Italy for a year in order to let her daughter go to school there and learn Italian. And now Joyce's daughters do the same which I suspect is a very clever inside joke. Andrew's remark of Buffy needing a break from California may be a reference to SMG needing a break from the character of Buffy. The various Scoobies are reassembling the Watcher's Council just as Wes' false dad said they were in Lineage.
In 'Lies My Parent's Told Me' Spike goads Robin Wood that his mother never really loved him and put slaying first (in fairness to Spike Wood had just tried to kill him). Here we find that this wasn't true, she did love him, her last thought was her begging for Spike to spare her so that she could go back to her beloved son. In School Hard Spike tells Buffy that the last Slayer he killed begged for her life. In 'Fool for Love' he tells her how he killed her and she doesn't beg. Maybe she did beg, just not out loud?
Dana dreams of previous Slayers just as Buffy did in the original movie.
Spike and Angel both consider themselves to be monsters. They might be right. The scene between them is too wonderful for words. Love to see Dana in the comics some day, all cured. Episode 11, halfway through the final season.
Marks out of 10; 8/10, strong ep but hard to watch. The final scene between Angel and Spike raises it up.
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Old October 14 2010, 04:17 AM   #266
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
DAMAGE

Spike asks Andrew if he's ever tasted 'a penny' From The Big Bang Theory? (Thank you scrawny71 for pointing out that)
What on Earth is this supposed to mean? Surely you can't be suggesting that Spike is deliberately but pointlessly making a dirty joke based on the name of a character from a TV show that wasn't on the air until years after this episode?

It's clearly a reference to the coppery taste of blood, and it's very odd that you would even think to imagine otherwise.
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Old October 14 2010, 11:43 AM   #267
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
DAMAGE

Spike asks Andrew if he's ever tasted 'a penny' From The Big Bang Theory? (Thank you scrawny71 for pointing out that)
What on Earth is this supposed to mean? Surely you can't be suggesting that Spike is deliberately but pointlessly making a dirty joke based on the name of a character from a TV show that wasn't on the air until years after this episode?

It's clearly a reference to the coppery taste of blood, and it's very odd that you would even think to imagine otherwise.
Hey blame Scrawy71, not me!

YOU'RE WELCOME
 
The Good;
EVERYTHING!
The Bad;
NOTHING! Well actually, Spike has met Doyle during 'In the dark' so why doesn't he recognise the significance of the name?
Best line;
CC; "You're welcome" (Could it be anything else?)
also like;
Angel (of Lindsey's new superpowers from Nepal) "They sell that crap at the airport"
and
CC (grabbing Eve by the hair) "Let's go Lilah junior"
plus
CC (to Lindsey)"Dinner and a show. And you're both!"
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Poor old Lorne has to get bled to make the spell work. Plus slaughtered nuns (once upon a time just Angelus' thing)
Apocalypses: 5
Angel Cliches
In disguise; 8
DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,
Cheap Angel; 8
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 7
Gunn; 7
Lorne; 6
Fred; 4
Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 8
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 3
Lorne; 8
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 5
Spike; 5
Kills;
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed: poor nuns
2270
Recurring characters killed; alas poor Cordy, we've had her from the very first episode of Buffy all the way through to the last season of Angel (8 years and over 100 eps) and now we must say goodbye. The shallow bitch queen of Sunnydale High became the girl we loved and lost
11
Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, Spike now cut off from Lindsey/Doyle and drinking with the AI gang (as indeed is a lonely Harmony)
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2
Packing heat;
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
Eve hints that Angel really rocked her world during their sex in 'Life of the Party'.
Captain Subtext;
Eve remarks that Angel is still the centre of Lindsey's universe. Hmmm?
Know the face, different character; 5
Parking garages;
9,
Guantanamo Bay;
Harmony beats up Eve but doesn't get to bite her. Eve seems to give up Lindsey very easily. Once again we have the strangely ambivalent attitude to torture we see in a lot of TV and movies
Buffy characters on Angel; 17
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.
What the fanficcers thought;
Read a lovely one where the last thing CC does is go to see Phantom Dennis, tells him she loves him and that it's time for them both to pass to the afterlife. And he does so they can be together forever. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3044478/...Phantom_Dennis Another familar theme is that Xander's attempts to reason with Willow at the end of Grave fail and DarkWillow either destroys the world or takes it over in partnership with The First Evil. Then Cordy appears to her and convinces her to set things right because SHE rather than Xander is the real love of Willow's life.
[FONT=Times New Roman]Missing scenes; Interesting to watch the (eternally gorgeous!) CC in The Expendables where she plays a domestic violence victim. You rather get the idea that her character is attracted to violent men, Lee (Jason Satham's character) is little different from her new abusive boyfriend except that he focuses his violence and channels it into his work (much like Mack and Tiffy, my favourite characters in The Unit).
[/FONT]Questions and observations;
The critter in the tank is very reminiscent of the 4-5-6 we see in Torchwood; Children of Earth. Cordy joins Willow, Buffy, Giles, Angel, Spike, Dawn, Andrew and Riley as a Scooby bitten by a vampire. CC apologies to Wes for killing Lilah. Wes forgives her, possibly because of his own behaviour in 'Billy' and under Jasmine's influence. Nice joke on Hollywood that Conor Farrell (most overrated actor EVER?) is unknown to CC. We see Doyle again, all the more poignant as Glenn Quinn had died from a heroin overdose (with Andy Hallet also gone pretty soon they might start talking of the 'Curse of Angel') Episode 12 of season 5, only 10 eps of Angel left.
Why not DB and CC on the commentary although Christian and Sarah do a great job. First appearance of Izzy the Devil who'll be more important later. Did Lindsey maybe bump into Oz during his travels in Nepal? He refers to Angel as Eurotrash, yeah pal, he's from where the history is from.
Last scene is great and it's not suprise that the tears CC and DB cry are actually real, as were mine.
The WB celebrate the 100th ep of Angel, a series that has run for 5 years and increased it's audience whilst slashing it's budget and has the 3rd bestselling DVDs in the US (Buffy no2, Band of Brothers no1). Then they cancel it. Then they go bust. Serves them right the morons!
Marks out of 10; 10/10 (sob!)
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Old October 14 2010, 07:58 PM   #268
Wereghost
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
DAMAGE

Spike asks Andrew if he's ever tasted 'a penny' From The Big Bang Theory? (Thank you scrawny71 for pointing out that)
What on Earth is this supposed to mean? Surely you can't be suggesting that Spike is deliberately but pointlessly making a dirty joke based on the name of a character from a TV show that wasn't on the air until years after this episode?

It's clearly a reference to the coppery taste of blood, and it's very odd that you would even think to imagine otherwise.
Hey blame Scrawy71, not me!
Um, I think we have a misunderstanding here. This is what I posted when reading your review of the episode on Syfy Forums earlier this year:

Plenty of sharp dialogue in this one. I was always amused by this exchange:
"ANDREW: What's it smell like? Blood, I mean?
SPIKE: Oh...metallic, sorta. You ever taste a penny?
ANDREW: No. Wait... no."
Tsk tsk. Jeez, how did they get away with that?
The Big Bang interpretation never occurred to me, probably 'coz I hadn't seen it yet. I perceived a somewhat different kind of sexual innuendo in the exchange. Let's just say that Spike might as well have said "You ever put a penny in your mouth?".
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Old October 15 2010, 01:38 AM   #269
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

saturn5 wrote: View Post
AJBryant wrote: View Post
I was going to say "I think I love you" but I couldn't remember if you were a lady-fan or a guy-fan, and I didn't want to commit a "bro" pas.
"Indianna wants me, but I can't go back there.." at least until the statute of limitations runs out.
But I'm dying to say "Hoosier daddy!?" ....
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Old October 15 2010, 11:21 AM   #270
saturn5
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Re: Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Scrawny71 wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post

What on Earth is this supposed to mean? Surely you can't be suggesting that Spike is deliberately but pointlessly making a dirty joke based on the name of a character from a TV show that wasn't on the air until years after this episode?

It's clearly a reference to the coppery taste of blood, and it's very odd that you would even think to imagine otherwise.
Hey blame Scrawy71, not me!
Um, I think we have a misunderstanding here. This is what I posted when reading your review of the episode on Syfy Forums earlier this year:

Plenty of sharp dialogue in this one. I was always amused by this exchange:
"ANDREW: What's it smell like? Blood, I mean?
SPIKE: Oh...metallic, sorta. You ever taste a penny?
ANDREW: No. Wait... no."
Tsk tsk. Jeez, how did they get away with that?
The Big Bang interpretation never occurred to me, probably 'coz I hadn't seen it yet. I perceived a somewhat different kind of sexual innuendo in the exchange. Let's just say that Spike might as well have said "You ever put a penny in your mouth?".
Then your smutty innuendo must be different to mine? (I'm beginning to feel like The Todd)

Into single figures!

WHY WE FIGHT

The Good;
Another wonderful Spike and Angel scene at the end, just as we saw in Damage. Once again past deeds come back to haunt us but this time it's what Angel did rather than what Angelus did. Also love Spike's 'Heil Hitler' salute to Angel and I think Eyal Podell does a great job as Lawson, he really looks like the naive all American poster boy (you could imagine him in Everwood or One Tree Hill or something) who is graphically confronted with the harsh realities of life.

The Bad;
Considering what badasses they're supposed to be Lawson overcomes AI very easily. Why do Spike and Lawson have to reach the shore before sunrise, can't they just hide underwater until night?

Best line;
Angel; "Spike's not in the SS, he just likes the coat"
plus
Spike; (of his fellow vamp prisoners) "Got to warn you, they're a bit stiff"
also like;
Nostroyev; (of Angelus) "You had quite the reputation back in the day but I haven't heard much of you lately"
Angel; "I haven't heard much of you EVER!"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Gunn speculates that Lindsey is 'boiling in his own filth'? YUCK!

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Cliches

In disguise; 8

DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,

Cheap Angel; 8

Fang Gang in bondage: Wes, Fred and Gunn all trussed up. Not Lorne though, because losing his head wouldn't kill him? Angel chained to a mess of weights
Cordy: 5
Angel: 15
Wes: 8
Gunn; 8
Lorne; 6
Fred; 5
Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out: Wes, Fred and Gunn
Cordy: 15
Angel: 19
Wes: 9
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 4
Lorne; 8
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 6
Spike; 5

Kills; 3 vamps for Angel several decades apart. Will he make the magic 150 total of kills by the end of the series?
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 48 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang;
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed: poor subs crew
2265

Recurring characters killed;
11

Total number of Angel Investigations; 6, from now on I really consider Spike to an inseperable part of the gang
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes, Spike

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2

Packing heat;
Wes; 11
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 3

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
Spike had been invited to a 'virgin bloodbath'...

Captain Subtext;
...but when he got there the virgins all looked like Gobbels? Nostroyev was the lover of Rasputin. Hello sailor!
Topical politcal comment on the War on Terror? This ep really deals with the moral compromises inherent in warfare, Lawson seems unable to accept that the US would do things like torture, use the supernatural for it's own ends and make alliances with evil people (like Stalin?) for the greater good. And yet here we do, Angel siring him to save the crew and help the war effort and then letting him and Spike go, responsible for the deaths of all they killed in the meantime. An obvious but powerful allegory to AI joining WR&H. It's a tribute to the power of the writing that there is no easy answer to all this, we don't know who's right or wrong, sometimes there are no easy options.
When Fred complains that Knox messed up an experiment Wes emphatically agrees that Knox is unreliable.

Know the face, different character; 6 Camden Toy who plays the Prince of Lies was also Gnarl and the Turok-Han on Buffy.

Parking garages;
9,

Guantanamo Bay;
Need info? Torture a Nazi! See Captain subtext. Lawson comments that you win wars by not doing whatever it takes but by doing what's right. Tell that to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki or all those folks in Eastern Europe we sold down the river to Stalin.

Buffy characters on Angel; 17
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

What the fanficcers thought; .
Plenty of stuff regarding Angel's missing years as indeed we also see in the comics with Angel during the Great War also travelling on a German U-boat and bumping into a Watcher called Colonel Wyndham-Pryce on the Western front.
Remember a way out there fic where following the events of 'Get it Done' Buffy is sent by the Shadowmen back through time to Sunnydale by inhabiting the bodies of all the other Slayers throught history Quantum Leap style and gaining power by enjoying their greatest sexual experience. In World War 2 the Slayer is a fervent Nazi and willing leather clad breeding slave to a mad German scientist trying to create a race of supersoldiers. However when his captive vamps escape her Slayer instincts kick in and she rescues the prisoners at the nearby concentration camp and helps them escape to America, including one grandma Rosenberg.

Missing scenes;

Questions and observations;
Maybe Buffy's theory about Rasputin wasn't so far off the mark after all? So if you get sired by a vampire with a soul you're still evil but you feel guilty about it? Does sound like a rough deal. Gunn begins to demonstrate his loss of his newly acquired abilities. Spike sings the contemporary British National Anthem 'God save the king' (which would be George the 6th). Good to see he and Angel are still patriots even if they are undead. It seems the Initiative have been around in one form or another for a long time (like Torchwood?). What a shame they couldn't have named some of the goverment men Mulder or called an agent who chainsmokes Morely cigarettes Spender, that would have been so cool. Like The Master and Khakistos the Prince of Lies seems to be gradually devolving into a Turok-Han, the older a vamp get's the more that seems to happen to them. Note when Spike is first captured by the Intiative in season 4 of Buffy he speculates that it's the Nazis who are behind it, stemming from his experience here. Note we have Angel still in his recluse phase (as we'll see in Have you now or ever have been?) and not yet a crusader against evil, he just wants to brood and only does the mission as he feels responsible for Spike. Spike's small boys delight in seeing a submarine once against casts him in the little brother role to Angel(us). No Harmony, who get's to clock off on time on a Friday night unlike the executives.
 
What is it about the Nazi era that still fascinates us half a century later? History TV channels screen so many documentaries on the Nazis they may as well be called the Nazi channel. Practically every popular TV/film series will do some form of Nazi themed ep in it's time (Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Last Crusade, The Boys from Brazil, Bear Island, The X-files, The X-men, Xena, Battlestar Galactica, Tarzan, Wonder Woman, The Odessa File, The Sum of All Fears, The New Avengers, The Tomorrow People, Dr Who, Lois and Clark, even Father Ted off the top of my head). Politicians and the media regularly hurl the term Nazi at each other as an insult. Even Quentin Tarantino feels the need to do a WW2 film with Hitler as a character. New books on the subject are published every week.
Communism is arguably an even more repellent regime, Nazi Germany for all it's abhorent evil never had to prevent it's population leaving in peacetime. The individual in Nazi Germany actually enjoyed more freedom than they did under Stalin. And he certainly killed far more people. Yet you walk down the street with a hammer and sickle no one bats an eye. Try it with a Swastika?
So what's the fascination? Is it that they are just so out and out the epitome of comic book bad guys? As Mitchell and Webb pointed out they even have black uniforms with skulls on them (communism is extremely humanitarian in theory, it just falls down in practice). WW2 is often referred to as the last good war, the clearly morally superior allies against the indisputibly evil axis (although with Stalin on our side you wonder if that's actually true?). Is it their larger than life villainy with hints of sci-fi and fantasy, inventing ahead of their time wonder weapons with extreme (mad?) science and fascinated with the occult?
Could it be as simple as how they dress? As Gabrielle once said 'Some guys (and girls) just love the leather'. Certainly Spike seems to think so. Lost count of the number of fanfics (and even lovingly crafted fan art web comics) where Wonder Woman becomes a Nazi sex breeding slave, sometimes willingly, sometimes not. An essential part of each fic is the modification/fetishfication of her outfit, red, white and blue, stars and stripes, go-go boots and lasso becoming lots of black and red leather/PVC, swastikas, spike-heeled black thigh boots and whip (don't worry she always overcomes in the end, her children rebel and rescue her or everyone falls in love with her and let's her go etc. My favourite is where she turns around at the end and goes "Well actually I'm jewish" and that's pretty much the end for the third reich, the regime is dismantled and she and Hitler set up house in rural Austria where he quietly lives out his life as an obscure painter). Is it just the power of their instantly recognisable iconography (kinda tough on the Swastika which is used in Hinduism, Bhudism and even by the ancient Greeks, actually makes sense for Amazon Wonder Woman to have them on her outfit). Think of Star Wars with it's serried ranks of identical 'stormtroopers' and Darth Vaders blacker than black futuristic Gestapo gear or the Daleks with their screeching hysterical voices and obsession with racial purity.
Or is the idea that it could ever happen again, all those Nazis who fled to South America or Southern Ireland with their stolen fortunes and technology, just biding their time for their revenge.
Why are we still obsessed with it all? Will we ever put it behind us? Or is it similar to our fascination with vampires? Power, seduction and the purity of evil? Do we find them sexy? (certainly Max Mosely does) Of course Angel gives us Nazi Vampires so we have both combined not to mention The Scourge with all their Nazi imagery.
Marks out of 10; 8/10, a good ep, pretty much 'In the bottle' or should that be 'In the sub'. With Angel's reduced budget this year they tend to go for a lot eps just confined to the WR&H set (Harm's Way, Life of the Party) or other stuff that's lying around the studio.
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