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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 9 2010, 08:14 AM   #136
Sci
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
William Leisner wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post

Same back to you, William.
It's nice to see my advice being taken to heart.
You want your so-called "advice" to be taken seriously?
Then follow it yourself, first.
His point was that saying the Andorians sound like they'll be whiny when you haven't read the book yet is a dismissal of the book, and that putting "I'm not dismissing the book" doesn't mean you are not, in fact, dismissing the book. Hence, he engaged in an act of satire by imitating his characterization of your behavior. You have been apparently unable to recognize his satire.
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Old July 9 2010, 09:50 AM   #137
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Sci wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
William Leisner wrote: View Post
It's nice to see my advice being taken to heart.
You want your so-called "advice" to be taken seriously?
Then follow it yourself, first.
His point was that saying the Andorians sound like they'll be whiny when you haven't read the book yet is a dismissal of the book, and that putting "I'm not dismissing the book" doesn't mean you are not, in fact, dismissing the book. Hence, he engaged in an act of satire by imitating his characterization of your behavior. You have been apparently unable to recognize his satire.
And my point was that William is being hypocritical. Putting "Not a criticism or anything. Just an observation." doesn't mean that you are not, in fact, critical.
Also, William's aggressive ulterior posts showed that he wasn't trying to be funny aka satirical in the least. Or, if he was trying, he did a poor job.

BTW, Sci, William's so-called 'observation' was directed at MNM, not at me.
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Old July 9 2010, 03:24 PM   #138
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Who cares? This conversation is lost and needs to stop, now.
Let's get back on topic.
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Old July 9 2010, 03:31 PM   #139
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

The dynamic in this part of the forum is often quite entertaining: it's the place where tie-in writers and their fans come to be dicks to each other
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Old July 9 2010, 04:35 PM   #140
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

flemm wrote: View Post
The dynamic in this part of the forum is often quite entertaining: it's the place where tie-in writers and their fans come to be dicks to each other
Yep...the ignore feature definitely comes in handy here.
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Old July 9 2010, 07:22 PM   #141
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

JD wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
I read the description for 'Paths of disharmony'.

I think it describes half the book (which most likely is as follows):
After the borg genocide, with the andorian population at an all times low, a solution to their reproductive problem is reconsidered - the reduction from 4 genders to 2. Of course, this causes social strife in andorian society.
Furthermore, the andorian-rest of the federation relations are worsening, what with a third of Andor being vaporised on Starfleet's watch.

In these conditions, a summit on Andor is convened, the Enterprise attending.
But a surprise guest appears as well - the tholians, who offer the andorians a cure to their reproductive crisis (while keeping their traditional 4 genders). In exchange, the tholians ask the andorians to leave the hippy federation and join the typhon pact, an alliance kindred with the warrior nature of the andorians.
The more I think about the more the more I realize that it could be the two sexes thing, it definitely would upset alot of the Andorians, and would solve the problem.
The ending of 'Paths of disharmony' could go either way:

Making the andorians leave the federation could actually be beneficial for the andorians (as a species in the trek franchise), in the sense that it would bring them to the forefront, provide future books with something of substance to develop and, thus, assure future in-depth development for them - as opposed to the relative neglect the species suffered until now. This would be a 'gutsy' choice.

Of course, at the end of the book, the andorians could remain in the federation, in tune with the 'rebuild' optimistic theme authors claim, on this site, will characterise future trek lit books.
Will they still be dying in this case? Most likely yes; this is one of the few particularities of the species that can be interestingly used in the future.
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Old July 9 2010, 07:34 PM   #142
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

I'd like the Andorians to leave the Federation. Until now, they've not had another multi-species political entity to join and they are far more militant and aggressive than most of the Federation's other members. It would make more sense for them to join the Typhon Pact and as stated would allow them to be explored as a species. We know next to nothing about most Federation members, compared to knowing tonnes of history and backstory to the Cardassians, Klingons and Romulans. The only Federation member we do have an extensive backstory for is the Bajorans because we focused on them for an entire series of Star Trek.
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Old July 10 2010, 12:53 AM   #143
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
I'd like the Andorians to leave the Federation. Until now, they've not had another multi-species political entity to join and they are far more militant and aggressive than most of the Federation's other members.
Oh? Really? 'Cos I'm remembering their depiction in ENT; they were the victims of Vulcan aggression on numerous occasions -- Vulcan's illegal spying operation on P'Jem, Vulcan's forced relocation of an Andorian colony on Weytahn in the 2090s, Vulcan's attempt to invade and occupy Andor on the basis of falsified intelligence in 2154. Meanwhile, the Andorian ambassador in TOS's "Journey to Babel" wasn't the one who provoked fights with Sarek the way the Tellarite ambassador did, and the Andorian Federation Councillors seen in the 24th Century novels have never been particularly militant or aggressive.

That's not to say they were pure and virtuous, either, but the Andorians are no more militant or aggressive than the Vulcans or other Federation Members.
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Old July 10 2010, 10:03 AM   #144
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Some thoughts:

1. Boy do I really really wish someone had said trade paperbacks had basically replaced hardcovers in that they eventually get a MMPB release. That would have been helpful information in that I wouldn't have spent twice as much money on what ended up being pretty awful books (Treason, BTRW). I don't believe I will buy the next NF and ENT books in TPB. LOL.

2. Overall a nice distribution of the series. A little bit of everything. Vanguard gets two, but a bit surprising there isn't more Titan (at least besides the Typhon Pact installment). You kind of want to bemoan the fact there's again no DS9 even as you remember it's in the month just prior to 2011.

3. The cover for the Titan Typhon Pact is a bit unimaginative. Nice colors (it's in the magazine), but suffers from Floating Head Syndrome. I figured following the cover for the first one, we'd at least see the Titan.

4. Will Cast No Shadow be classified as a Lost Era book?

5. I guess I'll give the NuTrek books a try.
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Old July 10 2010, 02:04 PM   #145
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Sxottlan wrote: View Post
3. The cover for the Titan Typhon Pact is a bit unimaginative. Nice colors (it's in the magazine), but suffers from Floating Head Syndrome. I figured following the cover for the first one, we'd at least see the Titan.
The cover for Seize the Fire is also up on Memory Alpha now.
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Old July 10 2010, 06:57 PM   #146
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Sci wrote: View Post
BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
I'd like the Andorians to leave the Federation. Until now, they've not had another multi-species political entity to join and they are far more militant and aggressive than most of the Federation's other members.
Oh? Really? 'Cos I'm remembering their depiction in ENT; they were the victims of Vulcan aggression on numerous occasions -- Vulcan's illegal spying operation on P'Jem, Vulcan's forced relocation of an Andorian colony on Weytahn in the 2090s, Vulcan's attempt to invade and occupy Andor on the basis of falsified intelligence in 2154. Meanwhile, the Andorian ambassador in TOS's "Journey to Babel" wasn't the one who provoked fights with Sarek the way the Tellarite ambassador did, and the Andorian Federation Councillors seen in the 24th Century novels have never been particularly militant or aggressive.

That's not to say they were pure and virtuous, either, but the Andorians are no more militant or aggressive than the Vulcans or other Federation Members.
It was just my opinion, and if you look at the Human-Vulcan-Andorian troika, the most aggressive of the three are the Andorians. The Vulcan aggression of 2154 was Romulan-insired, not Vulcan. I just think it will be interesting to see what happen if a founding member of the Federation joined the Pact.
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Old July 10 2010, 10:35 PM   #147
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
I'd like the Andorians to leave the Federation. Until now, they've not had another multi-species political entity to join and they are far more militant and aggressive than most of the Federation's other members.
Oh? Really? 'Cos I'm remembering their depiction in ENT; they were the victims of Vulcan aggression on numerous occasions -- Vulcan's illegal spying operation on P'Jem, Vulcan's forced relocation of an Andorian colony on Weytahn in the 2090s, Vulcan's attempt to invade and occupy Andor on the basis of falsified intelligence in 2154. Meanwhile, the Andorian ambassador in TOS's "Journey to Babel" wasn't the one who provoked fights with Sarek the way the Tellarite ambassador did, and the Andorian Federation Councillors seen in the 24th Century novels have never been particularly militant or aggressive.

That's not to say they were pure and virtuous, either, but the Andorians are no more militant or aggressive than the Vulcans or other Federation Members.
It was just my opinion, and if you look at the Human-Vulcan-Andorian troika, the most aggressive of the three are the Andorians. The Vulcan aggression of 2154 was Romulan-insired, not Vulcan. I just think it will be interesting to see what happen if a founding member of the Federation joined the Pact.
The Vulcan aggression of that particular year may have been Romulan-inspired, but those policies wouldn't have been possible had Vulcan not already developed an aggressive, imperialistic foreign policy long before V'Las came to power. Remember, the episode "Home" establishes that the High Command only really solidified its grip over Vulcan after the P'Jem spy installation was exposed and the First Minister was dismissed. And it was Vulcan that invaded an Andorian colony on Weytahn in the 21st Century, not the Andorians. And both Vulcan and Andor were equally guilty of using the Coridanite civil war as a proxy war.

Really, the only genuinely aggressive thing I think we ever saw the Andorians do was try to steal Xindi weapons technology -- and even then, they managed to be at least helpful to Earth by giving it their schematics of the Xindi weapon. And it was an Andorian ship that helped save Earth from the Xindi when the Vulcans were refusing to get involved.

The Vulcans are at least as aggressive and militaristic as the Andorians, if not more so.
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Old July 11 2010, 02:00 AM   #148
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

It just goes to show that you can't define a whole civilization by a single label, or assume that the same word that best describes a culture's priorities necessarily describes its government's priorities. Shras didn't say in "Journey to Babel" that Andorians went around invading people and waging war all the time, just that "My people are a violent race" and that they would see passion and gain as motives for murder. It could be that they were individually prone to fierce emotion and aggression, but that doesn't automatically translate to a militant foreign policy, since they may have directed that aggression on a more personal level or used it primarily for defense. Conversely, a people like the Vulcans may pride themselves on peace and order, but convince themselves that it's logical to use military force to put down threats to that peace and order. It's often frighteningly easy to justify harmful acts in the name of the greater good. So a culture doesn't have to be stereotypically violent on an individual level in order to have a government policy of military force.
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Old July 11 2010, 03:05 AM   #149
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Point conceded. I just feel that given what is known about the Andorians and their culture on Memory Alpha, that they are more militant and aggressive. Their military is an Imperial Guard after all, which denotes an empire which in turn is inherently aggressive and militant. With a violent history as we know must have been due to the Aenar passivity and their inherent dislike of Andorians in general because of the latter's violent tendencies, it makes sense for the Andorians to be a part of a political entity which has a number of aggressive, expansionist, xenophobic species already.

Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth.
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Old July 11 2010, 04:48 AM   #150
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

a couple things..
between the time of enterprise and the time of tos things seem to have improved between the andorians and vulcans.
shras seemed to respect sarek.
and in telev we hear about the importance of family to andorians which seems to balance out the agressive nature.

and the andorians may see the federation as their "family" and who knows a faction may also believe that they would be better staying within the federation where they may have an even more important role as protectors rather to just blend into the very agressive natured typhon pact.
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