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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 23 2010, 11:27 PM   #1
Kute
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Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Ya I haven't watched this in a long time. Was just wondering how a mining vessel could take on entire fleets. Even new flagships would have a hard time absorbing 10-20 torpedoes
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Old June 23 2010, 11:34 PM   #2
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Well, the Narada was from over a century in the future. It's likely to have very powerful weapons by the standards of 2259, where it ended up.

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Old June 23 2010, 11:38 PM   #3
Kute
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

That's true. But I assume they still had a chance to fire.

So would these old torpedoes on the klingon and federation fleets just be a much lower yield then "new" ones, or did they just not have them yet?
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Old June 24 2010, 07:52 AM   #4
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Also, in this universe, shooting down of missile weapons seems to be fashionable and possible. In regular Trek, this didn't seem feasible: we only ever really heard of it in ST2, where Kirk seems to be ordering Sulu to shoot down Khan's first torpedo with phasers, and Sulu says it's "too late". But if nuPike knows that torps can be shot down even by his own little ship, he might be less likely to use them against an alien supership.

I rather fancy the idea that the Narada had little or no armament, in 24th century terms. Just being a big bugger of a drilling rig would do the trick: enough bulk and shield strength to ward off primitive warships, and an endless supply of mining and demolition hardware that can be weaponized to some degree. But Nero apparently wouldn't have the sort of dedicated defensive weaponry that the Starfleet ships had (since he didn't use that to stop Spock from ramming his ship, or from destroying his drill), so he might not have been able to stop a torpedo attack after all...

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Old June 24 2010, 08:06 AM   #5
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Kirk says "Arm photons" when he's doing the Kobayashi Maru test and the Enterprise fires a bunch at the Narada near the end of the movie.

The Nero comics showed that the fight against the Klingon fleet was a surprise attack rather than a set-piece battle. The Starfleet ships that went to Vulcan didn't know they were going to be attacked when they got there. So the Narada does not automatically beat all comers.

As Timo mentioned, this is the first time in Star Trek history where phasers are used as point defense against incoming torpedoes/missiles. This is long overdue and works a lot better in the Star Trek universe than the previous precedent of "Oh, the torpedo is only capable of flying in a straight line and when it missed it flew off into space never to be seen again!" (The torpedo in Star Trek VI flew all over the place but only because a special guidance package was installed- looks like regular torpedoes don't get one!)
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Old June 24 2010, 08:53 AM   #6
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

DWMarch wrote: View Post
Kirk says "Arm photons" when he's doing the Kobayashi Maru test and the Enterprise fires a bunch at the Narada near the end of the movie.

The Nero comics showed that the fight against the Klingon fleet was a surprise attack rather than a set-piece battle. The Starfleet ships that went to Vulcan didn't know they were going to be attacked when they got there. So the Narada does not automatically beat all comers.

As Timo mentioned, this is the first time in Star Trek history where phasers are used as point defense against incoming torpedoes/missiles. This is long overdue and works a lot better in the Star Trek universe than the previous precedent of "Oh, the torpedo is only capable of flying in a straight line and when it missed it flew off into space never to be seen again!" (The torpedo in Star Trek VI flew all over the place but only because a special guidance package was installed- looks like regular torpedoes don't get one!)
I've always liked the concept of point-defense phasers from Star Trek Armada, in that a presumably low-power phaser array
was an anti-torpedo defense grid for starships.

I also recall Worf using phasers to destroy a missile aimed for a wormhole, though it wasn't headed for the Enterprise herself. I always thought it was strange that Worf could nail those missiles but was rarely ordered to do so with other projectiles. (Funnily enough, Worf fired two phaser blasts, the first one destroying the missile and the second missing as a result. I thought that was a neat touch). Worf had a chance to pull off the same feat in Generations, but the margin of error was judged to be too large.
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Old June 24 2010, 09:13 AM   #7
Timo
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

I always thought it was strange that Worf could nail those missiles but was rarely ordered to do so with other projectiles.
In case of incoming ones, it might be that the power expended in shootdown attempts would be considerable, and better spent on shields. After all, point defense phasers may miss, but shields will score a 100% certain "defensive hit"!

To be sure, we don't really hear that phasers would compete seriously with shields on available power. But sometimes (say, "The Changeling"), powering up the shields reduces maneuvering power (which presumably is a major power use) significantly, and sometimes shields are bolstered by taking power away from life support (which doesn't sound like a major power use). So one might decide that power taken away from phasers would contribute to shield power, no matter what the exact magnitude.

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Old June 25 2010, 07:21 AM   #8
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Timo wrote: View Post
In case of incoming ones, it might be that the power expended in shootdown attempts would be considerable, and better spent on shields. After all, point defense phasers may miss, but shields will score a 100% certain "defensive hit"!
I think you're absolutely right here. When you're firing phasers, you can either direct that energy at the enemy ship or you can shoot down projectiles while the enemy lays into you with phasers. It may simply be more energy-economical to let the shields take the torpedo hits while the phasers chew the enemy shields down so a torpedo can get through.

I wondered for a moment if JJVerse ships even have shields because it sure didn't look like it when the Kelvin took its pounding. But I do recall specific references ("Are our shields even up?!") so I guess they do exist in the JJVerse. But if they didn't the sudden investment in point defense would make a bit more sense.
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Old June 25 2010, 11:06 PM   #9
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

DWMarch, There were seveal mentions of shields.

Since the Narada was far more advanced, from 2387, it seems logical that those missiles had some kind of shield-draining/penetrating capabilities.

It seems the Kelvin had 2 kinds of phasers, the Red longer-range, sustained-beam phasers similar to TOS and TNG etc., and an array of pulse emitting point-defense, shorter-range turrets.

Here's how I see the development in each reality beyond this point.

Prime Reality

Point defense Phasers dropped due to vastly improved shield technology.

Alternate Reality

Although shields improved, Pint defense turrets and long-fire phaser systems merged.
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Old June 28 2010, 07:59 AM   #10
Timo
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Since the Narada was far more advanced, from 2387, it seems logical that those missiles had some kind of shield-draining/penetrating capabilities.
...Assuming the Narada was armed.

If we instead assume that Nero commanded a purely civilian mining rig, and that not even the evil sinister villainy phooie-phooie Romulans arm their civilian mining rigs with potent military weapons, then the fight might have been more balanced: Nero would be firing some sort of mining explosives that would penetrate shields by sheer quantity rather than optimized quality of destructive power.

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Old June 28 2010, 06:42 PM   #11
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Re: Are there photon torpedoes in this universe?

Timo wrote: View Post
Since the Narada was far more advanced, from 2387, it seems logical that those missiles had some kind of shield-draining/penetrating capabilities.
...Assuming the Narada was armed.

If we instead assume that Nero commanded a purely civilian mining rig, and that not even the evil sinister villainy phooie-phooie Romulans arm their civilian mining rigs with potent military weapons, then the fight might have been more balanced: Nero would be firing some sort of mining explosives that would penetrate shields by sheer quantity rather than optimized quality of destructive power.

Timo Saloniemi
I'm not sure I'd but the Volume of Explosives argiment, though it's a good one.

It seems to me that there has to be more to the Narada's technology than simply being a massive mining vessel.

The Countdown Comics provide a good overall explanation, though their canonicity is questionable.
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