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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 17 2010, 07:03 PM   #1
buckeyenation
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Okay Niners, Convince Me

When DS9 first aired, I watched it with eager anticipation. After viewing the pilot episode, my reaction was a profound apathy. Now after watching a couple eps on a Collective, I'm willing to concede the possibility I misjudged. So I ask you, Niners, to convince me further.....
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Old June 17 2010, 07:13 PM   #2
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

It's hard to be persuasive without more information. Why did you feel apathetic in 1993, and what are you liking about the Fan Collective episodes that you've watched?

In general, I recommend that a new viewer try watching from "Emissary" to "Battle Lines." The plots are pretty standard, but the characters are all defined and explored to varying degrees. You're almost guaranteed not to like everybody straight off, but that gives them room to grow and change over seven seasons. If you don't get at least some glimmer from the early episodes, then it may not be the show for you. However, if you do like what you see, then you will probably be a solid Niner by the end of the series.
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Old June 17 2010, 07:41 PM   #3
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

buckeyenation wrote: View Post
When DS9 first aired, I watched it with eager anticipation. After viewing the pilot episode, my reaction was a profound apathy. Now after watching a couple eps on a Collective, I'm willing to concede the possibility I misjudged. So I ask you, Niners, to convince me further.....
Ok then....

When it first came on TV, I thought the exact same thing as you and didn't quite care for it... I was too far into TNG to give it a chance really.

It wasn't until the series was almost over that I decided to look back into it.

Now I think it was the very best ST series of them all, even TNG (Though TNG is a very very close second)

My wife was never a ST fan in the first place and thought Star Trek was a shallow Star Wars-like show with no depth or substance and only appealed to nerds and losers.

Heck I thought the same thing when I was a kid until I got into TNG.

I'll tell you what I told her:

The first two seasons of DS9 are kinda bland, mostly because like TNG and Voyager, the first couple of seasons are needed to work on character development and scene setup. Push through the first two seasons and by the time the third comes around, things start to take off and you'll be hooked.

I was.... my wife was and most others I talked to were as well. In fact, my wife was sad when we got to the end of the series and there wasn't anymore. Her favorite characters were Worf #1, Jadzia and Odo.

Mine were Odo, Garak, Sisko, Worf and O'Brien..... Oh and Dukat... but I won't say why yet or else I may ruin some things for you.

Oh and if you're not that far yet.... sorry about spoiling the tid bit of Worf coming onto the show :P
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Old June 17 2010, 08:54 PM   #4
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

buckeyenation wrote: View Post
When DS9 first aired, I watched it with eager anticipation. After viewing the pilot episode, my reaction was a profound apathy. Now after watching a couple eps on a Collective, I'm willing to concede the possibility I misjudged. So I ask you, Niners, to convince me further.....
Best series imo even better than TOS. They did more to develop those characters than any other show did. Also by being fixed on a station it allowed them to have som many secondary characters like Martok and Garack.
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Old June 17 2010, 09:49 PM   #5
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

buckeyenation wrote: View Post
When DS9 first aired, I watched it with eager anticipation. After viewing the pilot episode, my reaction was a profound apathy. Now after watching a couple eps on a Collective, I'm willing to concede the possibility I misjudged. So I ask you, Niners, to convince me further.....
DS9 is a great series with an important caveat; The first season isn't very good. You'll not find many Niners that consider the first season their favourite of the show, and you'll find some fans that actually hate it.

DS9 grows in ways that the other Treks didn't, it goes from being a show about a shipping hub in a sector of little value to being a show about the fate of the galaxy. The main characters grow and change over the seven years, the characters in the pilot are different from the characters in the finale, and that's very rewarding for a long-time viewer. In fact, DS9 actually included a character in the first season that the audience were supposed to dislike, Dr Bashir, but he grows into a great character and a very likeable guy.

According to your profile you like TOS, TNG and Enterprise, and those are the three Treks that I also like (with DS9 being my favourite), so I think that DS9 might just suit you. I think you should definitely give the show a try, starting from the beginning. Yes, I know I said that season 1 isn't very good, but DS9 is a saga and it is worth watching it in order if you can, just keep in mind that the show will get better. If you find after a few episodes that season 1 isn't to your tastes then we can provide you with a list of essential season 1 episodes, the ones that are either good or important to watch for their universe and character building, and normally those episodes are one and the same.

If you do decide to take the plunge then I hope you'll keep us updated, we love watching the indoctrination of new Niners. Just be careful when visiting the forum, some of the thread titles have big spoilers.
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Old June 17 2010, 10:47 PM   #6
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

Season 1 does have a few good ones though. In particular, Progress and Duet. I also think the first ep was pretty darn good too though.
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Old June 17 2010, 10:58 PM   #7
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

My advice to you would be to do whatever it takes to get yourself into the show, because it is a special ride from beginning to end, the greatest of the Trek shows by a fairly wide margin imo.

Given that you weren't enthused by the pilot, you might want to try a few episodes from the DS9 Sampler described below to get a feel for the show's different themes and styles. The Way of the Warrior is basically a second pilot, but with the more epic feel of the later seasons, so I would highly recommend it. Also Trials and Tribble-ations, since you are already a fan of other incarnations of Trek.

flemm wrote: View Post
DS9 Sampler

The Way of the Warrior, which is basically a second pilot that works remarkably well as a standalone, while giving any new viewer a taste of the epic feel of the later seasons.

Duet, for a glimpse of the more intellectual and character-driven side of the show.

Trials and Tribble-ations, for any fan of other parts of the Trek franchise.

Necessary Evil, which needs no introduction.

Civil Defense, a standalone episode that involves a lot of important characters and introduces the station as alien and potentially dangerous. Also, people just seem to enjoy it.

Captive Pursuit, another episode that stands on its own and is widely beloved.

Whispers, Visionary or Hard Time, all high-quality "torture O'Brien" episodes that don't spoil anything.
Further thoughts from a bunch of different fans on how to approach the show as a new viewer can be found in this thread:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=117429

Good luck!

Last edited by flemm; June 17 2010 at 11:15 PM.
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Old June 18 2010, 12:46 AM   #8
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

buckeyenation wrote: View Post
When DS9 first aired, I watched it with eager anticipation. After viewing the pilot episode, my reaction was a profound apathy. Now after watching a couple eps on a Collective, I'm willing to concede the possibility I misjudged.
You didn't misjudge. The pilot truly isn't very good.

However, the bad quality of the pilot's content is not representative of the series as a whole.

I was in a similar boat to you when DS9 first aired. I watched the pilot, was bored to tears by it, and then tuned out of the rest of the series because the pilot so awful. It wasn't until I watched the show in reruns after it stopped its first run that I realized it was nothing like the pilot, for the most part.

As of the Season 2 finale, the series for the most part flushes all that junk featured in the pilot down the toilet and instead focuses on much cooler things for the rest of the series.

DS9 is the only Trek show with story development and character development which continues past 45 minutes of a single episode, therefore it's easily the best Trek show for those reasons alone, although there are many other additional reasons. You are missing out if you do not check DS9 out.

If you check DS9 out, the best to way to get a sense of what I've said is: don't even bother with Season 1. Skip right to the Season 2 finale episode, which is called "The Jem'Hadar" and just keep watching from there.
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Old June 18 2010, 01:11 AM   #9
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

buckeyenation wrote: View Post
So I ask you, Niners, to convince me further.....
You either want to watch the show or you don't. If you don't give it another chance, the only person who misses out is you.
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Old June 18 2010, 01:37 AM   #10
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

Navaros wrote: View Post
As of the Season 2 finale, the series for the most part flushes all that junk featured in the pilot down the toilet and instead focuses on much cooler things for the rest of the series.
For such a huge fan of the series, you don't actually appear to have paid attention to it.
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Old June 18 2010, 02:50 AM   #11
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

Tosk wrote: View Post
buckeyenation wrote: View Post
So I ask you, Niners, to convince me further.....
You either want to watch the show or you don't. If you don't give it another chance, the only person who misses out is you.
I feel this way pretty much also.

I mean, TNG's first couple of seasons are WAY worse than DS9's are, and if he likes that and got through it on the way to the better stuff, then there is no accounting for why he'd dislike DS9 by comparison and drop it so quickly. I mean, Encounter at Farpoint is a godawful mess. Give me Emissary every TIME!

And DS9 improves - especially after the Dominion is introduced.

Like most people around here, I love it when new fans show up and gush about how they gave DS9 a try (or another try) and decided that they'd made a mistake to ignore it completely or give up on it so early...or that they were too young to appreciate it the first time but love it now...or whatever reason they give for their change of heart.

But I think people have to WANT to give it another try. Because if you go into it wanting to dislike it and insisting that fans 'convince' you that it is, in fact, worth watching...well, that is not really giving it a fair chance.

I don't really know where the OP is on this issue, or why he wants us to 'convince' him. But my feeling is that he should give the show another chance (a real chance - not just the pilot or whatever) and let IT convince him.

Of course, that is going to take some patience on his part, because DS9 is not immediately everything that it becomes later on. When I rank the seasons, in order, they end up like this:

Beyond Great:
6
7


Great:
5


Very good:
4
3


Pretty good, with the exception of a couple of duds:
2


Just okay, with a few very bright spots that give a glimpse of it's potential, and a couple of utter duds:
1


But of course, he can't start at the point the show gets fabulous, because part of the reason it's so good later on is because of all the character development that happens earlier, and all along. I mean, would The Visitor be as good, for example, if you didn't really know Ben and Jake very well, but watched that episode out of the blue? I don't think so. The power of that episode is in the fact that we CARE about these characters by that point.

My feeling is that DS9 is like good Scotch - it takes a while to reach it's peak. So you have to be willing to wait - you have to have patience and stick with it.

If you can't do that, nothing we say in this forum is going to convince you.
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Old June 18 2010, 03:00 AM   #12
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Navaros wrote: View Post
As of the Season 2 finale, the series for the most part flushes all that junk featured in the pilot down the toilet and instead focuses on much cooler things for the rest of the series.
For such a huge fan of the series, you don't actually appear to have paid attention to it.
I am assuming here that he is referring to the stuff related to Bajoran internal politics (that is what most people mean when they say this). But I don't think that ever goes away - that is what Kai Winn is all about, after all!

I just think the Bajoran political stuff becomes more relevant later on, as we begin to really care about Kira...and Sisko as Emissary....and we begin to have really strong feelings about the Cardassian occupation, Dukat, Odo's part in the Occupation, etc. I think it is only then that we begin to really care about what happens to Bajor.

I don't know...just a guess. But that is my take on the issue (Bajoran politics) that most people who dislike the early seasons complain about.
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Old June 18 2010, 03:06 AM   #13
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

I find, like TNG, it takes about two seasons to truly 'get' into DS9. Season 1 is pretty clunky... season 2 has some amazing moments but still finding it's feet... but it gets very solid from then on, barring some inertia in S4. Give it time is all I can say.
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Old June 18 2010, 03:34 AM   #14
Navaros
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
For such a huge fan of the series, you don't actually appear to have paid attention to it.
I paid plenty of attention to it and know of what I speak.

Even the writers admitted that they mostly ditched that stuff in later seasons, because a lot of fans hate it.

As for equating Winn with that stuff, I don't agree that that's an accurate equation. I love Winn, she is amazing! One of the reasons why DS9 is way better after Season 2 is because when they dealt with Bajorans at that point, they wisely focused on Winn instead of the random whining Bajoran of the week who previously filled that slot. But even better is that aside from Winn, Bajorans/wormhole aliens etc. are largely abstracted out of the show.

I know there are still some episodes with them in it, but they are much easier to take in their drastically lessened S3-7 doses.
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Old June 18 2010, 04:12 AM   #15
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Re: Okay Niners, Convince Me

^ I wasn't aware there WAS a 'whining Bajoran' in every episode of S1 & S2. Must have missed that.

I suppose you could count Progress and In the Hands of the Prophets...but IMO those were two of the BETTER S1 episodes, after Duet (which also dealt with the Bajoran 'whining'). Certainly better than crap like Move Along Home and The Passenger, which don't have anything to do with Bajoran politics, but instead some silly TNG-esque sorts of 'alien of the week' kinds of situations.

In fact, looking at the first couple of seasons, my favorite episodes - the ones that actually saved the show for me, were PRECISELY the ones that had to do with the Bajoran stuff - Duet, Progress, In the Hands of the Prophets, the Circle Trilogy, Cardassians, Necessary Evil, The Maquis I & II, The Collaborator....

In seasons 1 & 2, the only episodes I really loved which did NOT deal mostly with the Bajorans were: Armageddon Game (mostly because it's the beginning of friendship between Bashir and O'Brien), Whispers, The Wire (which did actually touch quite a bit on Garak's recollections of the Bajoran people during he Occupation), and The Jem'Hadar.

So I don't really agree that S1 & 2 were bad because of The Bajoran stuff. I just think there were some dud episodes - several of which had nothing to do with Bajor.

Subject lane change:

To the OP - a few years ago, one of the posters in this forum (who I occasionally still see around the boards - mostly in TNZ) did a fan trailer for DS9 which I think is great. If this doesn't 'convince' you to watch it, nothing will:

SirRocko711's trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-nDssQRtI
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