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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old December 20 2009, 12:55 AM   #1
justcorbly
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Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Recently watched Generations again, wherein Picard meets and buries Kirk.

Does Picard address that in any of the novels, or in the films? One would think the experience would be memorable.
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Old December 20 2009, 01:25 AM   #2
Captain Randy Hall
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

justcorbly wrote: View Post
Recently watched Generations again, wherein Picard meets and buries Kirk.

Does Picard address that in any of the novels, or in the films? One would think the experience would be memorable.
Somehow that first sentence doesn't speak well of Picard.

I asked Ronald D. Moore about that when he was posting on AOL, and he said Picard would probably tell Starfleet but not many others. The Spock: Reflections comics miniseries from IDW shows him telling our favorite Vulcan about it, and Spock retrieving Kirk's body and taking it back to Earth.

I never liked Kirk's death and subscribe to the captain's adventures in the Shatnerverse myself.
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Old December 20 2009, 02:37 AM   #3
Allyn Gibson
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

justcorbly wrote: View Post
Recently watched Generations again, wherein Picard meets and buries Kirk.

Does Picard address that in any of the novels, or in the films? One would think the experience would be memorable.
Federation shows the immediate aftermath for Picard.

Ship of the Line also dwells upon Picard's meeting with Kirk.

In Shatner's novels, Kirk and Picard become best buds and have a bromance.
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Old December 20 2009, 03:33 AM   #4
Stevil2001
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Picard talks about Kirk's advice to him (about the captaincy) in Losing the Peace. I think it may have come up in other books, too.
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Old December 20 2009, 06:40 AM   #5
Nerdius Maximus
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
justcorbly wrote: View Post
Recently watched Generations again, wherein Picard meets and buries Kirk.

Does Picard address that in any of the novels, or in the films? One would think the experience would be memorable.
Federation shows the immediate aftermath for Picard.

Ship of the Line also dwells upon Picard's meeting with Kirk.

In Shatner's novels, Kirk and Picard become best buds and have a bromance.
They even go on vacation together, lol.
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Old December 20 2009, 08:01 AM   #6
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

^Why LOL? Shatner and Steward apparently hang out on occasion.
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Old December 20 2009, 03:58 PM   #7
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

^What relevance could the actors' personal lives have to those of their characters?
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Old December 20 2009, 04:43 PM   #8
flemm
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^What relevance could the actors' personal lives have to those of their characters?
Generally speaking, none. But in this specific case, Shatner is the actor and the author, so there is certainly no ruling out the possibility that his acquaintance with Stewart models the relationship between Kirk and Picard in the Shatnerverse novels.
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Old December 20 2009, 04:53 PM   #9
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

^ Stewart's and Shatner's interaction off screen, resulted in a increase in Picard's ability to ride a horse with skill during Generations. Definite impact on the character.
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Old December 20 2009, 04:57 PM   #10
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^What relevance could the actors' personal lives have to those of their characters?
None, but it's an interesting tidbit nonetheless.
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Old December 20 2009, 05:00 PM   #11
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

flemm wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^What relevance could the actors' personal lives have to those of their characters?
Generally speaking, none. But in this specific case, Shatner is the actor and the author, so there is certainly no ruling out the possibility that his acquaintance with Stewart models the relationship between Kirk and Picard in the Shatnerverse novels.
Well, yes, but isn't that kind of the point of the "LOL" criticism? That it's something that doesn't arise organically from the characters but is imposed on them from without?
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Old December 20 2009, 06:14 PM   #12
flemm
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, yes, but isn't that kind of the point of the "LOL" criticism? That it's something that doesn't arise organically from the characters but is imposed on them from without?
"LOL" is a pretty ambiguous expression. But sure, that may be what Nerdius Maximus was implying. Nonetheless, regarding STR's comment, Shatner's personal relationship with Stewart does seem to be relevant to the characterizations of Kirk and Picard in this case.

Recognizing this apparently very strong possibility is not equivalent to condoning the practice or suggesting that it makes for compelling stories.
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Old December 20 2009, 07:23 PM   #13
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

^Yeah, but it kinda goes without saying to anyone who's read the Shatner novels that their plotting is heavily influenced by his personal life and self-image. And I think what Nerdius Maximus was addressing was not why the author did it, which is self-evident, but whether it's a valid portrayal in-universe.
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Old December 20 2009, 08:38 PM   #14
flemm
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but it kinda goes without saying to anyone who's read the Shatner novels that their plotting is heavily influenced by his personal life and self-image. And I think what Nerdius Maximus was addressing was not why the author did it, which is self-evident, but whether it's a valid portrayal in-universe.
Well, I was originally answering the question you posed:

Christopher wrote: View Post
^What relevance could the actors' personal lives have to those of their characters?
However, we seem to have come to an agreement that the actors' personal lives are relevant in this case.

As to whether that invalidates Shatner's creative choices, I'm not sure that it does, at least not automatically. I don't read these books, partly for fear of overdosing on Shatner. I have a fairly low Shatner tolerance.

But it is the Shatnerverse after all. It's intended to be Shatner-centric, and I guess he has an audience.

Also, it's not that unusual for an author to base a fictional relationship on an actual relationship that he has experienced. What makes this odd is that these two individuals played the fictional characters they are modeling, but in another medium. So it is odd, but that doesn't make the choice invalid. Perhaps it makes as much sense for Picard and Kirk to bromance as it does for Shatner and Stewart to hang out on occasion. Perhaps they have a tendency to slip into character when they do? Trek must at least come up occasionally. The two men would probably not have become acquainted otherwise.

So, it is hardly surprising that the barrier between fiction and reality would tend to blur a bit in this particular case.
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Old December 20 2009, 09:01 PM   #15
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Re: Did Picard Ever Reveal/Discuss Meeting Kirk in Generations?

flemm wrote: View Post
However, we seem to have come to an agreement that the actors' personal lives are relevant in this case.
No, we haven't. Because my question, as I've already said, is not about the mechanics of the creative process, but about the in-universe perspective. I don't need you to explain to me why an actor writing a book about his character would inject elements of his personal life into it, since that's self-evident. I was simply pointing out that actors are not their characters, and that the friendship between a pair of actors doesn't qualify as in-universe justification for a friendship between their characters. As a rule, it's never wise to try to explain character behavior in terms of actor behavior. Often characters who hate each other are played by actors who love each other, or vice-versa.
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