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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 30 2010, 10:15 PM   #391
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Kirk is Kirk.
Except when he's Gary Mitchell, which is essentially who Pine was playing.

I'm not suggesting that the creators had Gary in mind when they wrote Kirk, just that the rather standard-issue charming bad boy depicted by Pine has more in common with Mitchell than with the Kirk of TOS, particularly of S1 TOS.
Interesting to see what Gary turns out to be like in this universe...
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Old June 1 2010, 11:30 PM   #392
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

A little something that occurred to me while watching a documentary on the Air Force Academy the other night:

Military academies are four-year programs, period.

They're not like civilian colleges where you can just rack up the credit hours and somehow do it in three years. Hell, cadets don't have any reasonable amount of time to do the normal workload (it's a part of teaching them time management and how to perform under intense pressure), let alone rack up any appreciable number of extra credits.

In other words, there is no such thing as finishing the program early! The only way you leave before those four years is you either quit or are expelled.

People's Exhibit #47 of how JJ & Co. don't have a clue about what they're doing.
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Old June 2 2010, 12:00 AM   #393
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Gene Rodenberry spent years telling everyone and anyone that "Starfleet isn't the military!". He even had militaristic jargon cut from novels.
Clearly he was wrong, but it's easy enough to believe the pseudo-military of the future operates on differing principles to the armies of today.
Today's armies break people down and rebuild them all the identically. Star Trek's future is different - it embraces people's differences as strengths. The TOS crew weren't G.I. Joes, nor have any Trek crews ever been.
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Old June 2 2010, 12:12 AM   #394
Nerys Myk
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
A little something that occurred to me while watching a documentary on the Air Force Academy the other night:

Military academies are four-year programs, period.

They're not like civilian colleges where you can just rack up the credit hours and somehow do it in three years. Hell, cadets don't have any reasonable amount of time to do the normal workload (it's a part of teaching them time management and how to perform under intense pressure), let alone rack up any appreciable number of extra credits.

In other words, there is no such thing as finishing the program early! The only way you leave before those four years is you either quit or are expelled.

People's Exhibit #47 of how JJ & Co. don't have a clue about what they're doing.
It only proves that the modern US Military requires a four year program without variation. it says nothing about what a future program may or my not require. That Starfleet is a note for note duplicate of the US Military is not evident

Accuarcy in fictional militaries is often hit or miss, be it Hogans Heroes, MASH,Combat or Star Trek. The need of the story will usually trump reality. I've heard it said that Kirk was too young to be in command of a ship like the Enterprise in TOS. That in reality the ship should have an older more experienced commander. That didn't fit with Roddenberry's vision (which changed by TNG) so we got a guy in his early thirties. We gonna say its People's exibit # 22 that GR got it wrong?

My dad, a 25 year veteran of the USAF (that's him in my avatar) used to laugh his head off at the inaccurate TV and movie versions of Military life. ( when it didn't piss him off) Star Trek was no exception, in fact I think he used to complain about it more than others. Probably because I liked it so much.

Last edited by Nerys Myk; June 2 2010 at 12:45 AM. Reason: more thoughts
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Old June 2 2010, 12:56 AM   #395
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Clearly he was wrong, but it's easy enough to believe the pseudo-military of the future operates on differing principles to the armies of today.
He couldn't be "wrong," because Starfleet doesn't exist. He was being inconsistent, which is quite another thing - but he was making this stuff up, he was the final authority on it while he was alive, and if he chose to be inconsistent that was his call. People can disagree about the importance of consistency and about how much to privilege the contradictions in Trek that they like over the contradictions that they dislike, but calling Roddenberry "wrong" is trivial and meaningless.
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Old June 2 2010, 01:18 AM   #396
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Re: Forced Mind Meld?

Dennis wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Clearly he was wrong, but it's easy enough to believe the pseudo-military of the future operates on differing principles to the armies of today.
He couldn't be "wrong," because Starfleet doesn't exist. He was being inconsistent, which is quite another thing - but he was making this stuff up, he was the final authority on it while he was alive, and if he chose to be inconsistent that was his call. People can disagree about the importance of consistency and about how much to privilege the contradictions in Trek that they like over the contradictions that they dislike, but calling Roddenberry "wrong" is trivial and meaningless.
I didn't say GR was wrong because he "violated canon" or anything like that, but because that particular decree didn't make much sense. The ship was armed to the teeth, for starters.

And whenever there's a war on in Star Trek, it's Starfleet that fights it.
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Old June 2 2010, 02:48 AM   #397
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Kirk is Kirk.
Except when he's Gary Mitchell, which is essentially who Pine was playing.

I'm not suggesting that the creators had Gary in mind when they wrote Kirk, just that the rather standard-issue charming bad boy depicted by Pine has more in common with Mitchell than with the Kirk of TOS, particularly of S1 TOS.
Interesting to see what Gary turns out to be like in this universe...
Unless something happened to shunt him on another path, probably a lot like he was in the original universe, which is to say a lot like Pine's Kirk, only with stronger esper ability.
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Old June 2 2010, 03:05 AM   #398
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post

Except when he's Gary Mitchell, which is essentially who Pine was playing.

I'm not suggesting that the creators had Gary in mind when they wrote Kirk, just that the rather standard-issue charming bad boy depicted by Pine has more in common with Mitchell than with the Kirk of TOS, particularly of S1 TOS.
Interesting to see what Gary turns out to be like in this universe...
Unless something happened to shunt him on another path, probably a lot like he was in the original universe, which is to say a lot like Pine's Kirk, only with stronger esper ability.
In this universe he'd never be Kirk's friend, because Kirk would take all the good-looking girls.
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Old June 2 2010, 05:16 AM   #399
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Re: Where did Spock go?

^ Maybe "Cupcake" was Gary?

And who's to say Kirk wasn't as much of a horndog in the original universe as in this one?

For that matter, have any of the novels dealt with exactly how Kirk and Gary first met? For all we know, it could have been just like this.
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Old June 2 2010, 05:30 AM   #400
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Re: Where did Spock go?

We know Gary met Kirk at the academy. The upper classmen warned him about Lt. Kirk.
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Old June 2 2010, 11:09 AM   #401
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Re: Forced Mind Meld?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Maybe "Cupcake" was Gary?

And who's to say Kirk wasn't as much of a horndog in the original universe as in this one?

For that matter, have any of the novels dealt with exactly how Kirk and Gary first met? For all we know, it could have been just like this.
The My Brother's Keeper trilogy is about how 17- year old Kirk and Mitchell met and grew up through the academy.
Mitchell was also in Strangers From the Sky (set partly before "Where No Man..."), was horribly injured right at the start of TOS origin story Enterprise: The First Adventure (presumably so he could be kept out of the story and away from the regular TOS cast) and was totally ignored in Shatner's modern take on Kirk's academy days (released before STXI, but with a similar chaotic vibe), Collision Course.
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Old June 2 2010, 07:35 PM   #402
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Maybe "Cupcake" was Gary?

And who's to say Kirk wasn't as much of a horndog in the original universe as in this one?
Because he was naive enough to be easily manipulated by Mitchell where such things were concerned.

Actually, what Kirk's like in the movie doesn't actually strike me as what Mitchell seemed to be like in that episode. From the beginning, and by his own self-description of his past, Mitchell was a cold, manipulative and self-centered man.
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Old June 2 2010, 09:51 PM   #403
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
A little something that occurred to me while watching a documentary on the Air Force Academy the other night:

Military academies are four-year programs, period.

They're not like civilian colleges where you can just rack up the credit hours and somehow do it in three years. Hell, cadets don't have any reasonable amount of time to do the normal workload (it's a part of teaching them time management and how to perform under intense pressure), let alone rack up any appreciable number of extra credits.

In other words, there is no such thing as finishing the program early! The only way you leave before those four years is you either quit or are expelled.

People's Exhibit #47 of how JJ & Co. don't have a clue about what they're doing.
That's funny, because I don't remember Star Trek '09 being about the Air Force Academy. I remember it being about a futuristic, completely fictional, space/military/exploration academy, where present-day American military academy rules don't apply. Because they certainly didn't apply in TOS, which Abrams based his movie on. Shatner's TOS crew's actions were far different from how any U.S. Navy crew would act. So really, Abrams knew exactly what he was doing, because he copied TOS's style of military service.

Really, we all know you hate the movie, because you bring it up with every post you make. It's like you have absolutely nothing meaningful to say anymore about anything other than finding more and more insignificant things to bitch about with this film. And we're all fine with the fact that you hate it. You don't have to justify your hatred with silly anecdotes that don't prove anything anyway.
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Last edited by Boo-khat; June 2 2010 at 10:01 PM.
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Old June 2 2010, 10:11 PM   #404
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Maybe "Cupcake" was Gary?

And who's to say Kirk wasn't as much of a horndog in the original universe as in this one?
Because he was naive enough to be easily manipulated by Mitchell where such things were concerned.

Actually, what Kirk's like in the movie doesn't actually strike me as what Mitchell seemed to be like in that episode. From the beginning, and by his own self-description of his past, Mitchell was a cold, manipulative and self-centered man.
And Pine's Kirk wasn't? I got a green girl who says otherwise--if she's even still alive. Maybe the green girl he apologized to in her stead will do, since they all look alike to him. (I know, I know, deleted scene... Goes to writer's state of mind, your honor, the same writers who gave us the shuckin' and jivin' robots of Transformers 2.)

EDIT: Besides, all Gary did was get an uptight friend laid--sure, he had ulterior motives, but come on, this is a guy who took a poison dart on Dimorus for Kirk. Before the Barrier, Gary was easily as good a a guy as Pine's Kirk. Easily. that's why WNMHGB is a tragedy.
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Old June 3 2010, 01:54 AM   #405
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
EDIT: Besides, all Gary did was get an uptight friend laid--sure, he had ulterior motives, but come on, this is a guy who took a poison dart on Dimorus for Kirk. Before the Barrier, Gary was easily as good a a guy as Pine's Kirk. Easily. that's why WNMHGB is a tragedy.
No, seriously. I think Peeples set Mitchell's character up more carefully than that, just as he did Dehner's. It's always seemed to me that what happened to Gary exacerbated aspects of his character that the writer establishes in the first act (more or less): that he tries to control other people, including friends, in his self-interest; that he's arrogant and that his vanity is easily bruised.

The backstory about him and Kirk could have been anything, after all, that enabled Peebles to tell us what Kirk was like (let's assume that this was the more important task, for the sake of building the main character of the series)...but what it in fact was, was a deliberate story about Gary lying and using people - including his friend - and seeing nothing wrong with it. That's not an accident or coincidence, because none of this is a spontaneous recollection of real past events - it was made up to support the characterization for the story.

By the same token, while we're probably meant to accept that Mitchell actually is courageous and does consider Kirk his friend, the only reason we hear the "poison dart" story is to show that Mitchell is using it to get what he wants from Kirk now.

In contrast, and despite Mitchell's remark about a "freezer unit (his wounded vanity speaking) Dehner leads with her feelings. This is why she remains accessible to Kirk and Mitchell does not.

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