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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 18 2010, 02:33 AM   #151
Lord Garth
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
But that's not what you said. You said "The writers and the actor were smart enough to keep him consistent." You're inferring that he was consistent throughout the entire series, and he wasn't. His character changed from the beginning of the series to the end because of character development. His character changed throughout the TOS movies as well. His character changed yet again in "Unification," and finally changed again in Star Trek '09. The only consistent thing about Spock's character is its inconsistency
You're associating development with inconsistency. It's not inconsistency if the development is happening along a curve. There's a difference between randomness and progression.

Spock smiles in "The Cage" but the reason for that is solely behind the scenes. Spock was not established as the analytical emotionless character. Number One was supposed to be the analytical one. Spock gained the analytic and emotionless demeanor only beginning with "Where No Man Has Gone Before". So that was inconsistency because the character's parameters had not yet been established. It was simply a reality of television production.

Now, setting aside "The Cage", if we look at Spock's development over the course of three seasons, he mellows a bit. Kirk used to rib him in the first season for becoming more human all the time. Spock did tell Rand a joke in poor taste but Spock did have a sense of humor throughout TOS, a dry sense of humor and Spock would deny it, but it was there.

After the five-year mission, Spock probably felt that he had spent too much time around humans and that it had affected him, and it would make sense for that to prompt him to wish to attain Kholinar to purge all emotion. To "purge" all emotion instead of just submerging it would mean control tighter than ever before. When he doesn't attain Kholinar, returns to the Enterprise, and makes contact with V'Ger he has the equivalent of an emotional release. The reason why he couldn't attain Kholinar is because he could never purge the emotional pressures he wanted to submerge.

By TWOK, he's clearly accepted his two halves. That's not inconsistency. That's character development, getting older, maturing, and reconciling the different parts of who you are.

This all gets reset by TSFS so it takes until TUC to get back to where he was at TWOK and then move on from there.

But Spock's development after "The Cage", when the writers and Leonard Nimoy figured out who the character was, was not inconsistent at all. It's called growth. It happens to all of us. It happens to you, it happens to me, and it even happens to Spock, fictional or not.

Last edited by Lord Garth; May 18 2010 at 06:25 AM. Reason: Two typos. That's it.
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Old May 18 2010, 02:46 AM   #152
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Re: Where did Spock go?

^^

Thank you.
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Old May 18 2010, 02:54 AM   #153
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Re: Where did Spock go?

It wasn't Spock that got developed it was Nimoy, your honor.
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Old May 18 2010, 03:05 AM   #154
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Re: Where did Spock go?

I believe it was indeed TOS Spock, but he (and Nero) emerged into the past of an alternate universe. This is because of the black hole. It wasn't simple time travel, it was inter-universal travel as well. It would explain how the original timeline can continue to exist even now.
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Old May 18 2010, 03:07 AM   #155
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Re: Where did Spock go?

I would like to officially nominate this thread for the title of the Nerdiest Thread on TrekBBS, a new award given for the thread that best justifies the stereotypes about Trek fans.

Of course, it will face strong competition from the thread I previously thought would be the clean winner, "When the person is beamed up it's not the same person".
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Old May 18 2010, 03:12 AM   #156
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Re: Where did Spock go?

^^ Actually I remember James Blish addressing that very issue way back in 1970 with his novel Spock Must Die!
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Old May 18 2010, 03:24 AM   #157
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
You're being too forgiving. TOS is not consistant with itself. At all. References dating the show vary from 200 to 900 years in our future, for starters. The design of the ship changes from shot to shot (when the pilot footage is reused). Yet as a fan you let it all slide.
I don't think it is that simple... as far as Science Fiction goes, TOS set the standard for consistency that most everything else since has been held up against. It raised the bar of what fans of SciFi were willing to accept.

That is the history, that is why (no matter what) Star Trek is above and beyond anything else in our culture.

But we can look at it more closely...

TOS was around for 5 years, had numerous writers and made 4171 minutes of episodes in that time. STXI was produced in 4 years by two writers and ended up with a 127 minute movie. Given that, I'm more than willing to cut TOS a lot of slack compared to STXI.

But above and beyond the numbers, the people who made STXI didn't consider consistency to be that important.

Were they wrong for not considering consistency important?

In 2010... apparently not.

But in 2054, who knows. I, personally, think they went for the short term box office gain over trying to make something with the staying power of TOS. I enjoyed it as a summer block buster, but it is already a last year movie for me (which is funny when you consider the fact that people who hated the movie care more about it than many people who liked it). And I sure wouldn't spend 40+ years focused on STXI the way that I have TOS.

And if anything, the biggest problem with the movie is that those who enjoyed it are generally apathetic to it. If they make another one, I really don't care. But that was the same problem by the end of the TNG movies too... I didn't really care if they made another one.

But by most standards STXI was successful. It sold almost as many tickets as TMP, it made more money than any Trek movie before it, and it won lots of awards. At the same time I have to wonder if it left people in the same place that Superman Returns did (a nice, enjoyable movie, both made about the same amount of money, but were generally forgotten a year later).

From what I've seen, a lot of people went to the movie (many more than once) and really enjoyed the experience... but we didn't really gain any new fans.

It would have been nice if STXI had as much depth of story as Avatar or Moon, but from what I understand the writers of STXI aren't known for that type of thing. But 10-25 years from now I doubt people will look on STXI as one of the important SciFi movies of 2009... it'll most likely be lumped in with Transformers 2.

But these were choices that the makers of STXI made, not mistakes. If STXI isn't as consistent as TOS, it wasn't a mistake... and needs no one to apologize for it.





Oh... and for the record, TOS Spock died in TWoK. So the fact that the doppelganger that assumed his identity doesn't have a clear memory of events which he didn't actually live through shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
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Old May 18 2010, 04:02 AM   #158
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Re: Where did Spock go?

^ It's Spock's body regenerated and it's Spock's memories he has inside him. Like they say, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

Save for Pike*, I think all the differences between TOS and ST XI are explainable, even the Romulans. I meant to mention this earlier, but there were so many other things I was typing in my first post that I just forgot. If Rabou (sp?) had never seen a Romulan before, he might be thinking they look like Vulcans, but he's not going to exclaim "You look just like the Vulcans!" in that situation. His first thought would be to attempt reasoning with Nero and then he can bring up the Romulans' resemblance to Vulcans later... except he gets killed. Afterward, there are 25 years between destruction of the Enterprise and the launching of the Kelvin where they can look at images transmitted and recorded from the event, so everyone knows what the Romulans look like.

* If this is an alternate reality all the way around that Old Spock and Nero traveled into, then Pike can be born earlier in addition to the Eugenics Wars happening later if it all.

R&D halting and being rethought, in light of Nero, can be the direct cause for the Enterprise's alternate appearance.

At the same time, I know that ST XI was a fig-leaf "have our cake and eat it too" reboot, so I'm willing to entertain Old Spock isn't even Spock from TOS, though I personally believe he is. I mean, you can rationalize the inconsistencies or you can call it like you see it. We could match each other into a stalemate.

Without being able to disprove an opposite opinion definitively it's like religion, literally, with its canon. You can interpret and analyze all you want, but there's nothing to prove concretely. My answer to anyone whenever they talk to me about religion is "I won't know until I'm dead and I'm not in a hurry to die."

Old Spock is Old Spock, however it means.

Last edited by Lord Garth; May 18 2010 at 04:21 AM.
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Old May 18 2010, 04:20 AM   #159
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Re: Where did Spock go?

So TOS is the alternate universe and Star Trek XI is the assinine universe. Gotcha!

Last edited by xortex; May 18 2010 at 07:15 PM.
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Old May 18 2010, 04:25 AM   #160
Lord Garth
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Re: Where did Spock go?

No. I happen to like ST XI. Why would I try to explain how its differences make sense if I didn't?

But that doesn't mean I'm going to criticize someone simply for having a different opinion from mine. It also doesn't mean I'm not even going to try to at least meet them half-way. IDIC.
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Old May 18 2010, 12:20 PM   #161
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
^^ Actually I remember James Blish addressing that very issue way back in 1970 with his novel Spock Must Die!
Eh, it's a fan idea to use it one time, say if it's a character in-universe thinking "I don't want to use a transporter, what if it kills me and makes a copy of me?" (I haven't read the novel so I don't know if that was the case or not, but I doubt that the entire novel is build around that idea.)

It would have worked as an interesting idea to have a fun discussion for a couple of pages. But 17 pages of people going back and forth and very seriously debating if all the characters in the fictional Trek world have actually been dying and replaced by their copies in every episode - in other words, people seriously arguing that they have discovered the truth about a fictional world that its writers, producers and actors have no idea about?

Hey, maybe someone will use that as the explanation of the Trek inconsistencies? Spock from STXI isn't the Spock from TUC who isn't the Spock(s) from TOS, and in TOS there were a bunch of different Spocks in every episode - because he died every time he was beamed up and got replaced with another Spock. Therefore his changes in personality, so we get Shouting Spock, Smiling Spock, Inappropriate Sexist Spock, etc.
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Old May 18 2010, 12:52 PM   #162
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Shaw, the STXI writers also write Fringe. They can be smart when they want to.

They wrote Transformers too (and Transformers 2 ), but that was always intended to be a special effects bonanza for children.

Saying "we didn't gain any new fans" when we've had exactly one movie in the new franchise and exactly nothing else is silly. Until the next dose of Trek nobody knows. There's nothing to measure against (except maybe the faliure of the action figures which can hardly be used as definitive evidence that the next movie will fail at the box office).

The DVD and Bluray sold millions, despite STXI being the most heavily pirated film of 2009. Maybe that's an indication.
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Old May 18 2010, 01:00 PM   #163
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I believe it was indeed TOS Spock, but he (and Nero) emerged into the past of an alternate universe. This is because of the black hole. It wasn't simple time travel, it was inter-universal travel as well. It would explain how the original timeline can continue to exist even now.
There's also precedent for travelling backwards in time into an alternate universe in In A Mirror Darkly.

If there is one argument I'm willing to give credence, it's the the above.
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Old May 18 2010, 01:34 PM   #164
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Re: Where did Spock go?

The "alternate universe" thing is simply a changed premise based on more modern scientific theories.

By going back in time and altering things Nero created a divergence point in the timeline. The timeline was the Prime one until it split. It wasn't previously existing, like "In a Mirror" (which would have created a split in the Mirror Universe when Defiant arrived)

By "old" Trek time-travel rules STXI would have erased TOS (which is probably why Warped9 wants to "prove" this couldn't be the case). By the new, based on real-life theories (no matter how bizarre it sounds) every trip back in time creates a new branch on the timeline tree.

Most of prior Trek can, just about, fit into this system (albiet impractically). Thus Janeway didn't "undo" anything in the Voyager finale, she just created an alternate timeline where events unfolded differently. STIV returned not to the future they left, but to one where two whales and a research biologist were stolen and a whaling ship was was spooked.
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Old May 18 2010, 02:02 PM   #165
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
By going back in time and altering things Nero created a divergence point in the timeline. The timeline was the Prime one until it split. It wasn't previously existing, like "In a Mirror" (which would have created a split in the Mirror Universe when Defiant arrived)
Yeah, I agree that pre-Nero arriving it was TOS.

I was just saying that the alternate universe all along angle is much more sensible than TOS Spock goes into a black and hole and is replaced by a different Spock from a different universe who arrives in a different universe that was triggered when Nero had arrived in a different universe and created a different universe when he destroyed the Kelvin.
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